In this episode, Jon Collins and Kentucky's Department of Fish and Wildlife Turkey Programs Coordinator, Zak Danks, discuss the effects predators have on the turkey population.
welcome to the fox Pro podcast brought to you by Fox Pro game calls hello everyone I'm John Collins welcome back to the fox Pro podcast we're kind of Switching gears on this episode there's still going to be plenty of coyote talk but we're going to be focusing in on wild turkey and wild turkey predators and another thing I want to add is Fox pro has some new turkey calls out for 2025 yes Fox Pro does make turkey calls we have tons of mouth diaphrams pot calls and box calls but for 2025 we have added a new pot call line called the crims and hand series it's available in slate Crystal ceramic aluminum and a tip over that is glass over slate definitely go check those out at gofoxpro.com but on this episode where we're going to be talking about wild turkey and wild turkey Predators we have Kentucky Department of Fish and Wildlife turkey program coordinator Mr Zack danks joining us what's going on Zach how you doing buddy doing all right John glad to be here man yep glad you uh glad you took some time to jump on here um if you don't mind won't you tell everybody a little bit more about yourself and what you do for uh Kentucky Department of fishing Wildlife yeah so I'm a wildlife biologist with department fishing Wildlife been here for going on 18 years now my job is uh turkey program coordinator and Ruff grass program coordinator so that just means I handle the kind of coordinate the activities within the department and uh Outreach with our our partners on the management of turkeys and rough GRS so grph are confined to Eastern Kentucky and and that that's kind of a special situation but of course turkeys are across the whole state so I'm working with routinely talking to Hunters I'm talking to our department staff across the the state that either manage our Wildlife man Management areas and other public lands or that uh we have some biologists that work with private land owners so we're always talking about how we can best advised folks that have ground they uh manage themselves and then I'm working with uh partner agencies like the US Forest Service that manages the Danel Boon national forest and L Between the Lakes National Recreation Area um all kind of you know just anybody else that has an interest in Land Management that deals with turkeys of course the national Wild Turkey Federation and turkeys for tomorrow two big the two big NOS uh Hunter Le groups that that are geared to Turkey management and uh yeah so so it's just essentially dayto day I'm I'm working on anything from uh potential regulation changes to research coordinating we got research projects across the state we can talk about that if need be uh and just talking to individual hunters and you know about everything from what the turkey population's doing what the Predators are doing what we can do about it all and these are these are routine things I handle and uh try to provide summaries for for my leadership our our commissioner and commission Fish wfe Commission so that's an important thing hopefully most of you listeners are are familiar with the department but the department fish and wildlife you know we hunters and fishermen Trappers fund our agencies so we are here to right to serve you provide quality Rec recreational opportunities Hunting Fishing trapping while maintaining populations uh into the future of course so uh if you're not familiar with the Department take a little time at some point look at a web page get familiar with the commission structure because basically they're your they're you're nominated officials to to speak on your behalf as a sportsman in your corner of the state wherever that may be so anyway just a little little little plug for how the system works I guess it's always good get the technical information from a person like me but you know talk with your commission members have a conversation um and yeah so that's kind of in a super nutshell but uh yeah we
uh we're definitely yeah definitely like what said earlier excited to have you on here and um and and guys that's listening you know I've worked worked with with Zach on a few little small projects over the over the last few years and I've got a ton of respect for Zach he's he's extremely extremely knowledgeable he's put in a ton of hard work for our wild turkeys and the biggest thing one another big thing for me he's a fellow Hunter you love to turkey hunt yourself don't you Zach oh man this is turkey Hunt's the reason I got into this profession period And I think that's probably common for a lot of our biologists today um for me I was totally hooked on turkey hunting the first time I went and that was back in 96 or 97 I think it was my I was a freshman in high school in 1996 so I think it was I got really into it over the winter because my dad had had recently gotten some old Hunter Specialties videos and night and Hell turkey calls and I got to mess with him and so by that spring I was geared up and got lucky to get a bird the first time and um that got me into it and then when I got to college you know I was like most kids don't didn't know what I wanted to study and didn't really know wildli biology was even a something you could major in or it was even a career potential but um I started out in in a engineering from a farming family and thought that's what I wanted to do but I met a a fellow biologist that's since become my buddy and Mentor uh Danny Hughes he he uh works for the national now he works for the USDA natural resources conservation service at the time he worked for fishion wildlife and he basically told me you're from a farm family you like to plant food plots and and uh you know you care about the turkeys like the hunt you know consider wildlife biology that's something that you could put those your background and your interest to use and and I was always a pretty good student I was kind of nerdy so I love to read so it worked out for me once I figured out it was a thing man it was no turning back so but I still love to hunt man I mean it's absolutely I it's it's hard for me to understand honestly how people could do a job like this and not be a hunter um because you know I have to temper my own desire to hunt with the biology of biological concerns I guess is what I'm saying but usually they go hand in hand so I just you know well there's a there's a few of them out there and that's one of the reasons I kind of wanted to add you know let everybody know that you're not just a wildlife biologist you know you are a hunter as well and I think like you said earlier I know there's a lot of people noways you know that are biologist for state agencies and and other other agencies and programs out there but you know I I think if you're doing something that that could affect uh uh the future of a certain animal and plus could have something to do with regulations for hunters I think it pays off for you to be a hunter as well so I got a lot of respect for that yeah for sure and and I would say a lot of our younger biologists from what I can tell that are coming into the profession a lot of them do have less of a hunting background hunting and trapping background they didn't grow up with it but most of them are very open to it you know that's we take for granted sometimes uh if you grew up with it it's pretty intimidating to somebody that that didn't get into this and I kind of I guess oh I'm sure you know when it comes to trapping too you know the Predator stuff I mean that's that's a real specialized skill set you got to have you know and if you didn't grow up doing it where do you start you know and so a lot of Bio you know they might otherwise do it but they didn't have that Mentor growing up so uh I mean from what I can tell most of the young biologists are are really into it and have gotten into hunting the ones that that aren't Hunters I guess I'd say have have gotten into it I don't know about trapping again I think it's a special skill um but uh yeah I think most of the biologist uh try it or do it to some degree some of us more than others maybe and U but yeah man we'll just eat up with it and and I hope that uh that's my job it motivates my job you know it's it's so I can right well well you you mentioned something about trapping there of course that makes me think of predators of course let's get right into to the main part of our podcast here today what we're going to be discussing and that is turkey and turkey predators and and what all goes in with that and just getting started you know what turkey pretty much faces Danger from predators at every single stage of its life you know that's including still being inside the egg and all the way through its adult life so Zach let's start with the nest what are the animals that will prey on turkey nest you know we hear the term Nest Raiders is that is that an accurate term and what are the animals that we would consider Nest Raiders well I guess it's an accurate term I I kind of feel like it has a connotation of well these are these animals are out there seek heat seeking missiles on turkey nest it's a little misleading just in the sense that man if you're a if you're a [ __ ] a possum a skunk trying to make it in the world you're just bumbling around from place to place finding what you can I mean they are the epitome of omnivores they eat anything and everything just about if they can get their hands on live prey without too much trouble they'll do it if they can scavenge some you know a carcass then they'll do that it's uh and then they'll also eat plant matter as well as uh you know insects and other bugs and and uh and turkeys Birds whenever they get the chance so it's at that said once they do learn they'll certainly continue to exploit turkey nest if they if they find it in an area um and and so it's it's it's accurate in the sense that yeah I mean there's a lot of stuff that that will just absolutely take advantage of that turkey nest if they find it but in in a lot of cases it's more like they're stumbling upon it uh right we don't thankfully we don't have a huge wild pig program feral pig uh problem here in Kentucky we've been very fortunate to keep it tamped down uh and controlled for the most part but in a lot of States they do have a problem with it and even despite the abundance of hogs and some of those other places Hogs are not just a major major uh cause of turkey nest loss they do take them but it seems really opportunistic and and otherwise you know they're not a what I'd say a leading cause of it so uh that your typical culprits of course would be raccoons POS some skunks but uh coyotes if they get a chance they'll they'll of course uh find that hen sitting on the nest and and that's you know probably to me that's that's likely when they have their most impact uh because otherwise coyotes are are mousing a lot of the time and uh and that's that's another thing you know just uh just because there's predators in the area doesn't mean they're only focused on turkeys I mean the majority of their diets other stuff so there's always other other prey items you know but well it's it's like one of those things we've talked about this with coyotes and stuff in the past and I know it's going to be hold True For the raccoons possums and whatever you know a lot of time while turke and in on if you can call it K&N is just the most readily available food source so if you've got a great you know a good Turkey population and there's turkey nest all over the place that kind of comes into one of the most you know one of the major food sources at that time and like you said any any Nest I guess that a raccoon trips over and he knows what it is he's probably going to have him a meal you think that's probably accurate oh absolutely yeah yeah for sure I mean that what you kind of alluded to there that it stands to reason that Predators would increase on the heels of a turkey population increase you know so when I talked to a lot of guys that have that have talked about how coats or you know Bobcats or whatever uh certainly the the raccoons and stuff have have increased over the last couple decades or or more well yeah and that's a reflection of your turkey population having increased over that time which is a good thing right it's hard to hold back another good food yeah yeah I mean and there was there's probably a period when when those Predators had to had to learn what the turkeys were you know back in the 80s and early 90s when po turkey populations were still expanding in across the state you know but they figured it out now and their numbers increased but uh thankfully um the turkeys are as game Birds Go they they do produce a lot of eggs typically and they're pretty long lived they're much longer than a quail for example or a grass so uh certainly predation affects their populations but but turkeys kind of have have uh characteristics of a of a short-lived species like a quail but also species like almost like a deer you know because they're they're longer lived so so they can adapt pretty well to to Predator populations and and predation um what what going back to The Nest say and you mentioned um you know if a cow stumbles on a hen laying on a nest what about if if a Cy comes by Nest no hen is present but the eggs are there is there any documentation that a Cy will actually stop and and and eat those eggs or they just looking for uh like a animal that's walking around type type deal or they will they feed on a nest itself oh for sure yeah yeah they they definitely would I think it's it's largely opportunistic I mean my guess is you know when I watch when I walk my bird dog every every morning or when I'm hunting with her of course you know you just wonder all the smells that she's in you know possibly encountering and how is she sifting through those Myriad different smells well I gotta believe Couts knows is just as good better potentially and they're always scanning for you know anything they can possibly get so if a hen just got up and took a recess that's what we call it when she gets up off Nest while she's incubate she goes up to for a recess to get some water you know go to the bathroom maybe grab a bite a quick snack uh certainly that she's left some scent Trail and so if that cow yeah crosses that trail and and follows it and happens to go back to the nest site well he's more than likely they're going to depredate it now I have heard instances and it's pretty pretty wild like uh with prescribed burning where u a fire went through an area and they happen to have a camera on in the in the area and they documented coats coming up to a nest that had been exposed to the by the fire like there was no vegetation around it left and they did not do it but that just just kind of like a my guess is that's a that's a oneoff kind of Rarity I mean if you're a coyot you're liable to take advantage of whatever you got and so certainly they will yes uh but so with anything else you know that's just a in in nature of course you just like with with our lives there's always a tradeoff you know we could sit here and watch TV all the time but we better get up and go to work or we better move around so we had do some exercise otherwise we'll we'll either be too poor to do anything or or you know poor condition so turkey has to get up and feed at some point and leave that Nest exposed and you know the the coyot likewise they can't just be seeking out uh turkeys all the time they're going to be mousing a a lot of the time because it's they can probably find more of that food easier it just is not very much energy in any one meal so if they're going along in an area and they just happen across a turkey nest well bam I would think they'd take advantage of that and it would be kind of a uh they'd be an especially good victory for them um I do think that Predators you know Couts are sharp predators are smart you know they they have to be they're they're they're not as numerous as their prey so they their numbers increase in response to prey but they don't ever quite get to the abundance level of prey they're just right you know they got they're just smarter so they learn and so if a if an area routinely has a lot of turkey nest uh then probably they're they're liable to exploit that I worry about that in the context of the baiting you know and maybe that's not a subject we have to talk about but you know if you're if you're putting bait out in an area year after year after year well your turkeys find that and that's a already known food source and and we know turkeys I mean anybody stands the reason you you see turkeys coming to it they kind of get hooked on it you're talking about like say if you were baiting for de or something like that turke for corn or whatever yeah but if you're putting corn out for deer then turkeys use that and probably that influences where a hen sets up her home range right she's going to she might use that feeder as a bait site as a hub to her movements and if she if she goes off 100 yards or so away and has a nest and you've got all the Predators that are concentrated in that area either because they like to eat the bait too in the case of raccoons let's say or because they're they're attracted to the parey I mean that's what your cows and Bobcat are doing they're following the they're following the the turkeys and deer in there so it just concentrates everything predator and prey and and I I worry about that a little bit as in terms of you know maybe that increases predation rate whereas if if you didn't have such a concentration it might not be such a big deal but you it it it definitely definitely could you know I I've you know I've baited for deer before I know a bunch of other you know I I I cow hunt and Bobcat hunt several deer leases and and Property Owners at Deer Hunt they'll put trail cameras out and they'll bait for deer and they'll start getting pictures like say have a bobcat that comes through every 3 or 4 days and you know they let me know about say hey there's there's a cat coming through here just every so many days and they'll be sending me pictures and I'm sure they're coming through there because you got all these birds you know uh not just like a game bird but all these song birds and Cardinals and everything else that's coming to that bay to pick around in the corn and I'm sure those Bobcats that's the reason they're coming by to check that because they hear all the Bird activity there and they think they can go through and get an easy meal so I can see where that would uh could be a factor for sure yeah yeah I mean I I think so people stop and think about it it's pretty pretty common sense if you're a again you're trying to make it in the world as a bobcat or a cow that's where you're going to concentrate your activities and uh you know definitely they're just cows especially they're so adaptive I mean uh they're going to they're probably picking at some of that corn themselves sometimes but oh yeah I'll guarantee it it's it's just it's like going to the grocery store cuz maybe there's not a deer turkey own the bait right now but man you just radiate in any direction and you going you going to follow a a trail of s you know find some prey yeah yeah but uh back to the nest so you would say like raccoons possums skunks coyotes wild hogs all those you would consider potential Nest Raiders Of course here in our area we don't you know Hogs not a problem but there's a lot of the United States that Hogs are a are a major major problem last two trips I was on was in Texas and and Florida both trips we saw Hogs so in both places have turkey so I didn't really even think about the Hogs being a being one but I'm sure man seemed like they destroy everything they come across so I can definitely see that yeah if they stumble in an area man you better look out because I mean it looks like you just run a tiller through the through the woods and Fields where they get so I say I mention that because we don't want to have that problem you know I know exactly a lot of guys have hunted them and that it's fun to hunt them but we don't want to hunt them here we don't want we don't want an incentive for people to illegally release them here because because of the damage that they do to what we our primary you know game of interest uh and that's it's just a major concern so we've got to keep what few pigs we got at keep their numbers low and and try to prevent their spread because we've got plenty of other things so in addition to the you know the mammals I mentioned you've got well another mammal I hadn't mentioned is aradillas which are they're moving their way East you know they're already well established in West Kentucky and and moving East um and you know I they're just another mouth that's wanting to come after your turkey Quail other you know other things so they'll be they'll be a nest trator as well yeah they add to the they add to the the mix of of predators what would you consider what would you think and you can speak on this and I know you'll probably know this for Kentucky but we've got you know from all over the country listen listens to this podcast what would you consider is probably your most common what you would call your number one nest trator and you can say for Kentucky and you don't have to mention for other states but you might know but what would you consider a number one Nest Trader well I don't know it's it's real hard to say you know it probably varies it's hard because a lot of The Nest R hear the r raccoon get get get the bad rap the most common one you hear about right and and probably a lot of it is a bad rap probably a lot of it is true too the my my guess is we are at all-time highs in terms of raccoon density you know ever because we don't have trapping we we don't have I mean and this is a like if it if it weren't for coyotes occasionally taking a a preing on raccoon I don't know what there is to control raccoon numbers because we don't trap them and we artificially probably increase raccoon numbers by all the extra SES yeah yeah I really it's kind of onew punch so they get a bad rout but it really they probably really are one of the worst ones on the nest and then kind of on the other end to something we don't think about as much our snakes rat snakes are are pretty big nest Predator we hadn't mentioned yet and that's one that they found uh research has pointed out that you know if you even if you control your mammal Predators very intensively number one like say you're say you're trapping for raccoon exactly and and Zach something you probably hadn't done and I need to get you out in the field and try and let you experience this this coming fall when our raccoon season opens but you can take a fox Pro and call those things up and you talk about aome it's one of the most fastpaced coolest thing you'll ever do to watch a watch a raccoon come out of its den tree or come running through the woods and absolutely tackle all of these calls you better have your shotgun because I'm telling you you a I mean it's crazy Zach you'll love it I need to take you out this fall but you can call those things in and and people more people need to try it you know you can take a few take a few raccoons out of the woods and man it is fun I just when they're coming good I justum do that is call coyotes or anything else it kind it sounds odd but I'm telling you it's fun sure it's it's awesome yeah it's pretty neat man it's like a u I know there's still a lot of [ __ ] Hunters out there but where I'm from that was a big thing and uh it's kind of cool because that's that's sort of like a new aged uh [ __ ] hunting you know like a different way to do it and there's plenty of them so it it'd be a fun way to spend spend your evenings when you get a chance so that's that's pretty cool you don't you don't have to keep keep up with the dog either that's right yeah that's true it's another way enjoy the outdoors man that's what I say to people all the time that we get on the subject of predators and and and Predator control you know what you can do on your property I mean like I said there's been research that shows Predator numbers can be controlled but it takes so much effort sustained over such a long time and to have any real effect you you got to have like Primo habitat conditions uh for for turkeys or qu or something but the other thing the reality is is that even if you are trapping and you're truly controlling your Predator your mammal Predators there's going to be something that fills the void and that could be snakes it could be uh crows U there's always the the Aven Predators we can't legally control I mean I've had some guys talk to me about that you know but man we can't we can't be shooting Hawks and owls and just no no no of course not the thing it's one of those it's one of those things it's it's like everything you know when it comes to a turkey it's like everything's out to get them everything but but you know if it weren't for that they wouldn't have adapted the the behaviors the instincts that make them so fun to hunt you know I mean they just they have to be wary so the to me I I like it that you can have a bird coming and then for whatever reason he hangs up and he's he doesn't like something something about to set up or you move something and he's gone now that's frustrating in the moment don't get me wrong but you think about it like if turkeys literally just came on a string every single time would it be that much fun no John Collins wouldn't be thinking about it because you're you're like a pro man you would have you would have every turkey you went on you would have been successful and you probably are successful in the majority but I'm just saying it's a good thing that we have some variety in there because it it keeps it exciting it keeps it fresh it reminds us that this is a wild animal we're hunting it's not a teame turkey that we're just slaughtering basically it's there's such a such variety every single hunt is different the conditions are different um and you know so I like the fact that there's this wild card element to it and you know they the turkeys behave that if they didn't have you had me sitting there thinking kind of thinking back back on like past hunts and stuff and you're right I mean it's like if you if every single turkey that you set up on just walked marched right in and you shot them at 15 Steps yeah that's cool but it would kind of lose its luster there a little bit it's it's where you go through all those uh setups every time you put you back up against a tree and start yeling to a turkey all those times that it didn't work out it makes it just so much sweeter when it does all come together and you got that big old gobbler sitting there just spitting and drumming right there and when he gobbles he rattles your chest that's what makes it special is having a few failures along the way and then when it all works out it just makes it that much more special yeah for sure I mean I guess it's easy for me to say maybe I'm not a great turkey hunter and it happens to me a lot but oh it happens to everybody everybody yeah I mean they're they're such a neat Bird Man and gosh if if I just hope people uh I mean every failure is an opportunity and it's not really a failure I mean my goodness hunting is not life or death but it is such a wonderful opportunity and privilege we have that you know you can learn from it you know should I have gotten up and and relocated on that bird you know running gun should I have set still uh all these kinds of things that just like hopefully you get to go another day you know get another chance to learn something and and I'm sure with Predators same thing John I mean you probably had all kinds of situations where maybe wish You' done something different or the they're coming in it's the same way it's just like making stands on coyotes everybody has dry stands it's kind of one of those things if you called them up every single every single time you made a Coy stand it probably it probably wouldn't be as special I mean we all like to have more and more success but it it makes it a little bit more special when you do have some you know if you will call it trials and tribulations but if you got to have a few dry ones there to make it make it a hunt you know what I mean and and it makes it that much more special when it does all work out um one thing I I just sitting there thinking you was talking about we was talking about the nest and stuff earlier and you was talking about uh coyotes coming up on a hen that's setting on a nest so I got me think about um about our nesting hint and you know they got to be vulnerable V vulnerable when they are sitting on a nest because they're not roosted up in a tree all the time you know at night stuff like that um is there a big percentage of our nesting hens that do uh encounter predation from say coyotes Bobcats Fox whatever oh yeah yeah definitely that the nesting period is is when the majority of of turkey mortality on adults happens most men yeah and it it happens on the ground while they're on the nest and while she's laying you know those first you know she doesn't start incubating till she's you know well into laying her clutch those first four or five eggs she She lays about an egg a day and and you know continues to roost in a tree at night and I mean she get can get picked off by an Al at night time during that during that period I mean your your Raptors Your Hawk your Hawks right now are migrating across the continent at this time of year so and that kind of continues through the through the spring so they they face those threats and then certainly once they start incubating they they're sitting there and so on once they do start incubating sitting they're no longer uh roosting in a tree then they're on that Nest is that correct that's right yeah uh there's some variation early in it like she might incubate a night or two and then Roost in the tree and but once she settles in with incubation uh she's there she's committed to it she's only going to get up once a day maybe every other day to get up and like I said go get some water get some food go to the bathroom but she's she's invested in that and the longer she goes in incubation the less likely she is to abandon that nest if a predator does come by so and and I guess the greater greater the threat because she spent more time on the ground how many how many days how many days do do they sit on the nest before they hatch typically it's about 26 to 28 days so oh man almost a month you know three that they that they on the ground pretty much yeah 24 hours so it stands the reason yeah the risk from predation way up at that point and you know we've U our research here in Kentucky we've had going the last few years we've been able to document around a a 30 to 40% Nest success rate and so that just means a nest produces at least one egg essentially in statistical terms so you know the majority of them are not successful and and that 40ish percent range that we're in right now is actually pretty good uh some years it varies a lot by year for various reasons and it varies from place to place you know we could have a better nesting year here this year and then somewhere else might have had a worse year and then we might flip-flop next year it just it's highly variable but 20 to 40% n success is pretty common and um you know it's and this is going back decades ago even before there was many Couts across the Eastern us at least you know we would you didn't see much higher than that even back then you know 50% would be a real high n success rate so uh that's that's definitely when they're most vulnerable um of course gobblers they're they're in a little different situation they're they're bigger their main main risk they face is also uh it's certainly during hunting season we're the main Predator but it's also when they're Goblin on the roost it makes them vulnerable to owls as well Great Horn Owl is a pretty amazing Predator they they can flat out decapitate a gobler on the limb so we'll we'll talk about that here in just a little bit a little bit more in depth because you told me about that down in Nashville mention and I I was not aware of that and I thought that was pretty cool I definitely want to talk about that that but uh I want to go right on the back side of the nest when when the potes are hatched out uh you know they're they're super super vulnerable till they can actually fly um how how long does it take before they get their their flight feathers I'll call I don't know if that's a proper term uh but what uh what are what are the biggest predators to that impact pots that you that you've seen uh through your study and everything in the field Zach yeah well they're they're flat out super vulnerable for that first week and a half two weeks before they can fly so they they really can't fly for at least a week and a half probably probably two is kind of a safer figure to give and when they do start flying you know they're not immediately able to fly in trees they got to kind of uh work their way up in bushes they'll fly up in a shrub and head high or so and then eventually they they can fly but naturally once they can fly and get up off the ground and have some escapeability their their mortality does go way down but that that first week is first week and a half is critical period and lots of things can get them I mean it's the the hen is trying to brood them I mean at nighttime she's enduring rain she's extending her wings and they literally fit up under her and and try to hide and uh because they when they're real little not only can they not fly but they've not molted their their uh secondary feathers the first few days when they're covered in down they're really susceptible to toh exposure from from cold wet weather and then you know they they'll mol pretty quickly and get those new feathers but they're still vulnerable of course as they're growing they can't all fit under her wings so that it's like spilling out and all the while you know you got Predators during the day and during the night uh you're again your your owls are are on the are risk at night time and and uh then of course during the daytime you got you can have Cooper's Hawks your you know your sort of your Forest specialist Hawk uh but then that that's when a [ __ ] could turn into an active Predator potentially but more than likely you know you got a fox or coyote that's G to if it gets the chance it's going to sweep in there and bobcats are a pretty amazing Predator so they're going to pick off whatever they can get if they can get the hen they'll do that if they can get a p they'll probably do that but it's uh they're they're pretty susceptible those first few days and so it's sometimes you think about it and it's like how do any of them survive right right you know that probably has to do with a lot of luck a lot of chance you know where do the predators happen to be at any given moment um if that the habitat is just has got to be ideally the habitat would be just like that hen wants it which is there's some you know weedy type vegetation that she can see over top of to help keep a watch out uh for Mammal predators and Aven Predators both but there it's tall enough to hide the pts and unfortunately that that's like a vegetation structure that you got to manage for cuz you know here in Kentucky we get enough rainfall that any field any hay field is going to grow tall in in short amount of time and it can grow taller than that hen and so it's not ideal it can get too thick and it's really a balance you know having places that are thin enough that the pulse can move through it and she can see through it and over it but but that there is enough concealment it's tall enough that there's some concealment and so it's a it's a challenging interaction and you know if you talk to a biologist very long uh you're you're going to hear us talk about habitat and specifically going hear us talk about fire prescribed fire it's a it's a really specialized tool that we would like to see use more across the state but it's challenging and you got to have certain training it's probably not for everybody it's not for every situation but but research has shown that when when you do have fires routinely happening in an area particularly in woods and a lot of This research happening down south because they they run fire through through Pines very oftenly very often and frequently you know every couple years and that tends to actually help the turkeys and makes the Predators less likely to be there at least in the short term so it's kind of got a double whammy not only does it that burning stimulate the plant growth that turkeys like to eat the bugs that are that are in the plants pots like to and adults adult Target you need to get those but it also seems to detract the Predators from even being there especially your things like Coons and possums and things they they tend to avoid areas that get burned a whole lot so you know I mentioned that just because even here in Kentucky we try to increase the land owners that that Implement prescribed fire their place and and you know it's got to be done right and and you don't want to burn up all your Timber recklessly but there is a way to do it that benefits wildlife and that's okay for your Timber and it can create the type type of habitat that can not only benefit turkeys but also sort of uh make the impact of predation less right right talking about the predation I've never seen this on turkeys firsthand but I saw it with in geese before uh and actually saw this while scouting for turkeys just glassing from afar and I think I've talked about this in the past but I watched a t a coyote stalk up on some baby geese once and there was one Mother Goose in there in the bunch anyway that Coy popped up up over this bank and course the mama I went after was trying to fog it with its wings and all that type of stuff well that Cy ended up killing the adult just killed it and then after it killed it it just immediately went in on on those baby geese and it ate every one of them it was like I can't remember like three or four of them but it just gobbled them down like hardly even chewed them just like just I mean within 20 30 seconds it ate like three or four geese you know babies well then left and it wasn't maybe a it was just a few minutes later I can't remember what the time span was but I would glance back down there just occasionally because I was trying to find Strut and gobblers and far off Fields I was upon this big high high open Ridge where I could see a bunch of farm ground well anyway that KY end up coming back and Drug off the the adult Goose that had killed earlier and took it off in the weed so it come in and killed killed an adult and ate three or four babies so I could see that happening with with turkeys pretty regular if they were able to come across them yeah I I wouldn't say that would be any difference with turkeys if it would be with Geese yeah yeah it probably it certainly happens like that you know there's no doubt and it's of course uh just a more likely to happen before they can fly so you know to your original question there yeah that first couple weeks of man they're really the hen and the pts are vulnerable cuz she's not going to want to leave the pts and and uh they can't escape very readily so man CO's going to do what it can and right so that's that's definitely a big uh a big potential problem Zach you was saying there earlier you was talking about the about the owls getting the gobblers and stuff like that um what let's talk about H versus gobblers for for predation is one more susceptible than the other and it's have to be just for the spring season uh this could be for year round or whatever uh but but tell us about that what are the main predators that get to adult birds hens versus gobblers and talk about the the owl uh the owls get killing gobblers you tell me about that back in February down at down at the nwtf show and I thought that was just super super interesting so if you don't care tell us a little bit about that yeah man I it's really cool uh findings from our research and not just just in Kentucky but in in other across the South uh henss are definitely more susceptible throughout the year um and throughout the day uh so certainly we we talked about that during the nesting and broering period henss are are just far more susceptible because they're they're still you know they have to they're tied to that Nest it it it just increases the risk they're not as big they're not as able to fend off a potential Predator um and in addition to the Cs and bobcats we've kind of touched on that hen can get prayed on by owls great horned owls specifically uh on the roost and some of the the research is showing that that hens are are much more likely to be uh prayed upon during the uh not just around Daybreak you know when cows and Bobcats are active but but even backing up 3: 4 in the morning when it's still full dark um by those great horned owls gobblers are taken by owls too we've had a we've had a couple uh I think we had two Jakes killed by alows in our study so far um but they it's a little more constant and at a lower level so for male turkeys no doubt hunting is the main cause of mortality uh right by far but uh but they do they they are susceptible to owls as well but it's it's pretty tough because you know it's another source of of mortality for those hens so she's she's like pretty much 247 facing facing a risk of of predation but the uh she's whether she's on the ground on the ground while rooting um especially Roo I mean on the where she has to roost on the ground with that Nest she just faces a disproportionate risk um you know it's it's relatively rare that I would say that the owls take them off on the roost um it's it's just way more common when when she's sitting on the ground and and everything has been able to especially if they've been able to pattern her movements or follow her you know she's going back to that Nest location and that just that just pins her down but U yeah pretty neat work uh hens have this increased nocturnal predation risk um and so even though we think tree rooting is a way to reduce risk it is it can still it can still take out a lot of a lot of hens I think I think that study showed that like Great Horn ows are like 30% of the predation or something um really really 30% that's a pretty big number overall yeah yeah so it's like I said the the cows and bobcats get a bad rout but the owls are a big big factor as well and again you know that's just something you got to take note of I mean it's uh not owls are not something we can control directly no no and and you said and they target gobblers as well and you know when they come and hit them it's kind of like you said they go kind of like they always go for the head or or what I know you've told me you say it's kind of like just like like the old Broadhead the gobler guillotine said they just come there and just pretty much just whack her heads off pretty much on a big gobl it is yeah that's that's pretty much what happens I mean I think it's a uh it's just the it seems like a smaller Target but that that owl knows instinctively that where to hit them to to really bring them down you know you know how hard it is to shoot to kill a gobler easy it is to lose one if you shoot it with a bow in the body so it's Guillotine is is All or Nothing they're going to kill it or not and same with an owl but they're they're just real precise and they will flat out sink them Talons into the into the head neck area and if not flat out decapitate then it's it's hanging there by a thread so to speak so it's amaz good grief that's a big old gobblers that's several meals for a Great Horn now yeah it's I mean it's a it'd be a heck of a fun if they get that lucky you know for sure so going back to yeah go ahead talk talking about all these predators and of course we was talking about coyotes earlier on and that's usually always our main focus but uh you know it's definitely one of the first Predators we always think about and we know that they do pray on wild turkeys we've talked about it here but but they also pray on a lot of the animals that we consider Nest trators like uh the possums the raccoons and all that type of stuff do you do would you think that's kind of a would you consider consider that a double-edged sword so to speak even though that they do pre on turkeys they're also taking out some of those other ground mammals like the raccoons and stuff like that helping helping to control um their populations or or do you not view it that way oh I absolutely view it that way I mean I think I think Cavs are are some of the most fascinating creatures out there you know and they're yeah they take turkeys but if it weren't for them I I don't know what would control like I said control the the raccoons because we just don't have enough trapping going on to to matter at a big scale a Statewide scale but so that just makes it every time a co could possibly can go after a a smaller wouldbe Predator I mean that just to me is they're providing us a service and fact is they eat other stuff most of the time so I think it is a double-edged sord um and as turkey po like any any prey population as it grows this could be deer anything you know as you get more and more animals in a in a space as their populations grow and grow and kind of reach the limit of what the land will support well you there's going to be more older sicker animals out there and and so that that's a service that those Predators play is they help they help clean out you know keep the population of the parey healthy by getting those animals out of the population and probably you know indirectly it's it's making the health the Turkey population I don't know if it makes it less susceptible but it might in a given area um they're they're definitely kind of helping us out too so that just makes it just highlights the complexity of the whole thing you know it we always want to make things simple to understand but it's just flat out complicated when it comes it's complex it definitely is and it's kind of complex really when you get to thinking about it when it just comes to uh uh turkey survival because all that stuff goes right into right into play as well um one of the huge things that comes into play Zach and I think we've got to talk about is um you know this kind of gets away well it kind of tie right back in the Predators as well but how crucial is habitat uh for the wild turkey not just habitat uh but the quality like not just like loss of habitat but quality of habitat how does that play in and how big of a factory is that for the wild turkey survival yeah I think it's important I think it's more important than we than we sometimes give it credit for uh you know like again I kind of got to grow up and seeing turkeys and I don't want to say taking them for granted but you saw them a lot and and you just think well I mean you see them out in fields you see them in pasture you see them in the woods so they must just like it equally the same everywhere right well not exactly and they they do occur in a lot of places they're what we call a generalist but to me when habitat matters the most it's during the time of year when nesting and brooding is happening what we' just been talking about um unfortunately in Kentucky Tennessee this part of the world and surrounding states here we're we're like in the we're in the Fescue belt so to so to speak and Fescue is an amazing plant uh I joke with some of my my colleagues a lot about it because uh he gets a bad rap amongst biologists but but we also acknowledge its importance because back during the 1920s 30s 40s farming led to a lot of erosion across the country including here Fescue came about over the ensuing decades and really helped to stop a lot of that erosion it happens to be a good forage it can withstand heavy grazing pressure by cows so you don't even have to be a great farmer in order to to have cows put on weight and and grow beef for you because they're they're eating Fescue but the problem with Fescue from a wife standpoint is that it it just tends to dominate it makes a carpet and so not only is is there potential loss you know in a Fescue field that gets mowed for hay let's just say Fescue is prime for mowing for hay making or for grazing right at the wrong time in terms of turkeys because that's when in yeah first first cutting first cutting right there underneath gosh I mean it's just right when they're nesting or bringing off the first Broods if the hatch is happening and you know that's something um so before we even get into quality or loss of habitat I mean if you build a subdivision in a place that used to have turkeys well that stands a reason you got houses there now that's habitat it's gone it's paved over whatever but the subtler thing is when you have habitat out there and it gets mowed down it it's it's now not really so usable for a nesting hen or you've actually mowed up the nesting hen or The Brood or whatever so so there's like varying degrees so when in this landscape for Farmers that actually trying to make a living you can't blame them for cutting hay and grazing cows but it makes providing habitat in other spaces all the more important but another you know you can you can shift that a little bit uh you can plant some native warm season grasses and you've heard us biologist here at Department talk about that a lot John those those are the taller prairie grasses that that don't mature until the summertime so when it's hot out those grasses are thriving and and you can cut them for hay you can even graze them and if a if a producer puts some of his pasture in those it lessens the risk of mowing or grazing over turkey nest and it shifts some of the hay making and grazing to to the summer when those Broods have the nests have hatched and the Broods are up and out of there so that's that's one thing but really really thinking about what's what plants you got and when you manage it that's really important and unfortunately you know a lot of your listeners are hunters and Trappers we we only control a little bit of a land you know Farmers control the majority of it and so we need to work with them provide them incentives try to try to encourage them to to maybe not not mow every part of the farm you know because if you do then you're you're saying okay Turkey population you you even though you want a nest out in this field we're going to mow you up so you've either got to nest in the woods or in this fence row over here that may be not even all that great you know it may if peries were just relegated to nesting in fence rows well I mean what's cow going to do he's going to hit that fence row travel along it and boom she's a Sitting Duck there whereas if she's got habitat and able to be a a needle in a Haack so to speak out in the field or out in the woods that are managed well then it's harder for those Predators all been right you know my dad's got Dad's a cattle farmer and he's got you know got some ground just south of me here and he's kind of like giv me his one section he's like do whatever you want to it with it you know you're you h i do you know some food plots that stuff grow up and try to try to somewhat manage manage it and uh and I have seen that it helps you know I see you know we see increasing numbers of uh of you know turkeys with young around coming to fall that we that we used to not see and stuff like that but you know we still see some hands get chopped up during hay cut season in Alp Alpha field you know why that one decided to to try to nest in alpha alpha field and she gets cut up in May versus going over to this other 130 Acres where it's just woods and growed up fields and stuff like that I don't know maybe the other hand pushed her out there whatever but but I do see that it helps you know kind of give them a designated area that doesn't get touched or is managed for them to to try to be able to survive in and it does make a difference yeah makes a huge difference it does yeah I mean you like food plots you mentioned of course they're or Al Alpha you know something like that it's flat out attractive to birds so if you with food plots if you if you let them go f for a year and then you know don't plant them but every other year I mean I know it's kind of heresy or or split up your field and and let half of kind of go f for a year or two those weeds and that standing veget dead vegetation structure is real appealing from a nesting standpoint but sometimes K just pick the alala or they pick the places we don't want them to probably because there's bugs around and other you know things she happens to like the height of alphaalpha really nice because it's not so tall that it over tops her she can stick her head up and see it but she can also hunker down and be completely invisible so it's it's uh you know we just have to provide spaces that are out there so that some of the henss will choose to Nest there because it's you know scr we scratch our heads as to why some hens Nest where they do sometimes they'll Nest right on the edge of a road of you know a busy Gravel Road got a lot of traffic I've seen it I've seen it I mean seen just two days ago I was out on a research site and I was talking to our our PhD student who who's tracking these turkeys day and night throughout the year and she showed us a she had a piece of of flagging tape on a a little sapling that was about five yards off of a gravel road on the wfe management area and she's like well that's where a hen nested last year and she was successful and you know if you were driving by by you're not going to see her cuz she's sitting there still but if you knew what to look for you could flat out see her and so she didn't really have very much uh vegetation to obscure her some hens are like that they'll nest in a wide open spot in the woods and other others will get in the thickest gnarliest Blackberry Thicket or whatever you can imagine uh it doesn't always translate to success sometimes what I would consider the safest best Nest site still gets depredated by by a predator and you're wide open like seemingly stupid H like why is she nesting there sometimes they can be successful it's it's pretty hard to know and it's a lot of chance involved a lot of luck now come brood rearing time for those hens that are successful that's when habitat really becomes more critical for because you got to supply food for the pts and ideally you want to have good places for them to bug not too far from good nesting areas because you don't want the hen having to take them a long way because they're real susceptible the the farther she's got to move those things um so you got to provide food for the pts you got to have cover they can move through but that still protects them and allows her to see over top of it so getting that I kind of mentioned it earlier but getting that vegetation structure is is tricky and challenging because you know if you let if you don't mow you don't burn you don't manage a field well it gets too Rank and and wooly and thick and turkeys won't use it you know well and that's another thing it's you know B you mentioned earlier about these spots that are burn that kind of uh keeps uh raccoons and some other animals out they don't like it as much but another kind of double-edged sword that's out there usually if you've got good habitat for that a turkey finds appealing usually it's pretty appealing to other animals too like a Coy Bobcats and stuff like that so it's I don't know it's just it's just just part of it I guess it's like you said it's complex I've been hunting on a WMA before in an area that so this would have been in April obviously and then it had been burned like the month before so you know you're just getting this brand new fresh green growth amongst the black ash in the field or and and so it's easy to see the turkeys but I had a cow come in too and you know it's trying to stalk it's attracted to that area because the prey is attracted there right but it it was not successful getting the hen cuz those turkeys can see that thing coming from a lot farther away right you know it's kind of cool I mean and pretty understandable that it attracts a lot of wildlife but it changes the Dynamics up too you know there's the the turkeys are out there eating the fresh vegetation the deer are um but the Predators might have a little harder time at it because they they're not as they don't have that cover to conceal them while they're stalking so do you do you have any data or have exper do you all done any studies like Bobcats versus Coyotes I would think a bobcat's probably way more successful at bagging a turkey than a coyote is have you all have any kind of anything to back that up or I mean just like you said the Coyote's trying to stop and he's just he's a little bit more just kind of going you know if he's he's on the move he sees him then he then it turns into a stop bob cat just a total different animal how they hunt something you know they're almost set and weight and when they're stalking it's just slow movement um have you seen seen anything like that or done any kind of studies that involves that Bobcats versus Kow and depredation on wild turkeys I haven't done them myself we've not done them directly in Kentucky like the the predation efficiency of of bobcats per se we know they're they're a significant predator of turkeys and I mean it common sense would dictates my hypothesis if I were able to do such a study would be that they would be on average more successful at ambushing turkeys than a coyot so so it's you know it's kind of a back and forth kind of thing and and we we have a healthy Bobcat population you know that's great you know folks should take advantage of it but I don't think it's like they're just going absolutely Bonkers where we when you when you get a chance to Hunter trap on it's pretty special and it's our state you know I don't know UK fans are dime a dozen across the state so so it's our mascot you know it's pretty cool that's that's right well tell us uh what kind of what kind of studies or projects are going on right now uh for you guys involving wild turkeys so we got two studies one is uh Statewide in scope we've got staff department Fish Wildlife biologists across the state who are uh trapping turkeys and banning them so they're they capture them with they bait an area they they set a rocket net up and they catch these turkeys with rocket Nets they put a metal leg band on them and they let them go in the same place and we basically those when Hunters shoot abandoned bird they report it and that information helps us to gauge Harvest rate essentially help us to know how much pressure we're putting on the population because at the end of the day the main thing we can control as a state wfe agency are regulations so with this study we're we're trying to get at how much pressure we're putting on the population and what that might mean for our regulations and while we've got the birds in hand sort of a subset of them we'll take blood samples and and other biological samples that allow us to look at the kind of Baseline health of the population because we all know diseases are are something you got to be consider considered of that affect turkey populations and so this is a chance for us to get a a better handle on that because we routinely get people submitting dead turkeys that they find U but you know a dead turkey turkey doesn't last long because of all these predators and scavengers that we've talked about so uh if if you're only looking at dead turkeys it's kind of a biased picture so with the research we're able to catch live healthy birds take samples from them and we can learn about some diseases that are going on so that's that's kind of a double pronged uh one project and then the other project is is focused in Wester Kentucky uh mberg Ohio County area and uh it's on public land and private land and and there uh we're capturing males and females but primarily females hens and jennies and we're putting GPS radio trackers on them and we're able to study their movements of course their survival where they nest when they nest uh how successful they are um how many eggs they lay how many of them them hatch it's it's called reproductive ecology it's basically everything that goes in to produc and uh the next generation of turkeys we're trying to study it because that's it's a little that's harder for us to directly control right but we need to understand it and and things like predation that that's a we can we're learning about that the predation rates and stuff and so it's it's going to be some really good information that's that's the that's basically a quick nutshell summary of of our turkey research ongoing right now and um I'll just say that you know thanks to the Sportsmen who buy hunting fishing license because you're helping to fund This research you're helping us to better understand the game that you like to pursue by funding This research and the research is not just being done so we can you know write it up put it in a book and set it on the Shelf somewhere it's directly to inform our management uh which is designed to help provide a sustainable Turkey population for you to hunt right is is there other states that you know of um that are that are going through uh similar studies and projects at the moment many many states yes I'd say this is aesome this is the there's a lot of studies in a lot of States U of course we have a lot of universities I should have mentioned Tennessee Tech universities our big research partner in this effort so we've got a PhD student and a master student both going to get their degrees and they're going to become very uh well-informed professionals one day getting stud stuff live and breathe it right now but you got you got universities and state agencies across turkey range in the East and in the Midwest and the West I mean lots of turkey work going on there's the national Wild Turkey Federation and turkeys for tomorrow they're they're funding uh at funding projects at a unprecedented rate and it's because you know we've had some concerns about turkey populations and we want to make sure that the populations we know as much as we can and and we make good management decisions based on it so yeah it's there's a lot of studies going on a lot of cool work and um you know ours is is ongoing so it'll be a couple years before we have the finding final uh findings written up and presented but uh I mean we're already learning a lot of cool stuff and and uh just hope to to keep it going into the future so that's that's good stuff and Zach we appreciate everything that you guys do for the wild turkeys and what you do for a sportsman uh it's pretty much going to wrap a up for this podcast do you have anything you'd like to uh to leave us with I just say I appreciate what you do man I mean I I really appreciate these opportunities to talk you know not just as a biologist but also as a hunter because I right really appreciate the the and I'm thankful for the opportunities that we have and and predator hunting is I mean it's just flat out popular these days and in some cases maybe it's helping your local population but it's it's no doubt a great pastime and I just hope folks will take advantage and get out from behind their phone screen or whatever and go out there and have a good time get you a caller get good at predator hunting I mean it's it's super fun and uh yeah I just appreciate the the support of all our Sportsmen and and we're working together and we're going to make make opportunities the best we can possibly do it so I guess that's all I got to say awesome yes sir we appreciate you we hope everyone enjoyed this episode and we hope you join us again right here on the fox Pro podcast