Join Jon Collins and Torry Cook as they discuss December Coyote calling tips and tricks.
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Coyote pup dispersal and calling the month of December. That's our topic for this episode of the FoxPro podcast. This is going to be a good one. I'm John Collins and we have Tory Cook of MFK joining us. Tori, it's been a minute. How you been doing, buddy? Oh, I'm doing pretty good. I think all the changing seasons for the coach and us too with deer season and kind all those transitions have had us busy and yep it has been a day or two but doing good. Well, you know, like I said when we're recording this is smack dab in the middle of uh November and this podcast come out here in a in a couple weeks be just right on time for December column. But, you know, for most people across the country when it's mid mid November, even though they might be hardcore coyote hunters, at least part of them got to be thinking about big rut and bucks. So, that's what we've been uh been trying to hunt a little bit. How's your how's your deer season went for you? Uh I've been frustrated with it this year so far. I've got I've got some deer that are on on my own ground that are big enough, old enough, but I I'd like them to get a little bit bigger. So, I'm sitting here hoping they can get through this rifle season that's in right now. And then on some of the public ground stuff I hunt, I really hadn't I've got a couple in mind that I might shoot before the season's over with, but right now I'm looking for something something bigger. So, um, we'll we'll see how it goes. I'm I'm still in that looking for the right one. Yeah. Mindset right now. Yeah. Now, like where you're located at, when does when does y'all rod hit? Is that is it that traditional mid November, early November, or you are you later? Yeah, pretty much right now. Yeah, right now is the you're getting into the the peak of it right now. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you never know. This is one of them deals where you got to you better watch what you're doing when you're driving or you've been unmatched one because they're running and looking and Yeah. bucks are crossing the road, crossing the highway at any hour of the day or night. So, Right. It's it's that time of the year where they're on their on their feet looking. Yeah. Yeah. We was just talking about that right before we hit record on this. Uh right down here on my my daddy's property, there's a it's in between two roads, a US highway and a and a county road. There's a old buck down there. It's it is really hoodooed me over the last couple years. I've actually tried to hunt him last couple years. He's seven-year-old buck. And uh anyway, I don't I've lost track of him. Ain't had no pictures, no sightings, no nothing. And there's a vehicle down there with the front end all smashed up on that US highway. And there is a huge bodied buck in a ditch right past it with its head cut off. So, it's a pretty good old chance that uh old buddies um is gone is gone. It uh kind of breaks my heart. I hope whoever's driving the car is all right, you know. But yeah. Yeah, it happens to the best of them. Seems like them cars and big bucks just they like magnets. A lot of them go down that way. That's a That's a hard way to see one go. That's for sure. Oh, it is. Especially when you got history with him and all that kind of stuff. You got time invested in him and wanting to kill him and something. And then the the real kicker is you don't know for sure. So, you left wondering what happened, you know. Well, the funny thing is this buck uh vanished on me last year. I was trying to kill him, but he didn't vanish until up in the I think it was about the second was probably like November 8th. So like right now is when I lost him last year and I thought he got killed during our rifle deer season. Then all a sudden he showed back up. So you never know. I might get surprised again, but I doubt it. You know, he's got a lot of things going against him right now. He's got uh Kucky's deer rifle season is in and he's got age working against him. You know, you just don't see too many bucks make it. You don't even see them make it to seven years old, let alone get past seven year old. So, no. Now, down here, somebody's done put a spotlight in their eyes for then or some thermal one. It's hard. It's hard for them to get past that two-year-old stage. Yeah. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Well, I know everybody they got to worry about getting hit by a car. They got to be worried about getting shot from the car. Yeah. Exactly. Everything everything motoriz is out to get them right more ways than one. Yeah. Well, everybody everybody tuning in, they I'm sure they want to shut up about deer hunting and start talking about about coyotes and uh everything else that can be called up during this time frame. And that's what we're wanting to talk about here. And uh uh well Tori, I mean pretty much we went through uh coyote family bust up and I think that is the last podcast had you on here for uh and now we're actually right into the yearling dispersal period or pup dispersal, whatever you want to call it. Why don't you tell us a little bit about that that that transition from coyote bust up finishing to the actual uh dispersal of all the yearling coyotes? Yeah. Well, like we've talked about before, it is a kind of a trickle effect with the dispersal. You've got some coyotes that right off the bat, as soon as those family bust up starts taking place, you'll have some pups that get pushed out and they may take off and become transients and leave that area completely. You've got others that stay on for a period of time, maybe this time of the year to where they start venturing out and dispersing, actually dispersing where they leave that home range of the adults. And then you've got those that are going to stay on, you know, and may help raise pups the following year and are still in, even if they don't help raise pups, they're still in that home range of the adults. Right. And we're right in the middle of of a lot of those pups, the bulk of the litters to where they're starting to range. And one thing that I'll mention while I got it on my mind, I've had two messages this week asking about, you know, killing multiple cos. You know, they may call in three or four coyotes and they kill three or four coyotes on the stand and every one of them are a male. Yeah. you know, where every one of them are the same sex. And what you run into this time of the year in particular during that right on the tail end of that bust up time frame and your pup dispersal is a lot of times you'll have those litter mates. More often than not, they're males that are still running together. Out of this little bee litter that I had this year, there were six pups in the litter. Well, three of those males are running together and they're all, you know, they're they're busted up, but those three male pups are still together and they'll tolerate each other for a period of time. So when people kill call in multiple coyotes and kill multiple same-sex coyotes this time of the year, most often those are litter mates and at the very least related because you could also kill an adult male that would have, you know, uh those yearling pups. Yeah. Right. Still in the same area, you know, you may not call them in all together, but you call up a a male and then you call in another coat and it's a male yearling. Yep. A lot of times those coats are related and a lot of times they're just litter mates. So that's something that people will see this time of the year when they're calling coats and killing multiples and wondering why they're all the same sex. Right. Right. Well, that that is one of the things I was actually going to ask you about uh on later in the podcast, and I think it's great time to go ahead and cover it now because I've I've had that happen uh several times uh in the past, and you know, we talked about this in our uh family bustup podcast and and past October podcast, uh but the importance of continuing to call after the after the first shot or first coyote comes in. uh because you'd still have that big opportunity to possibly kill multiple coyotes. You know, a lot of times you'll kill, it's a good time of year to be calling uh you know, calling in pairs. Uh but there I've killed many triples uh during the month of December. And one that stands out my mind was a triple with three just like you just said, three male coyotes. And what it was, you could tell two of the males were were litter mates, you know, same size, same, you know, they were just, you tell that they, you know, they were out of the same uh same batch. Uh, and the third coyote, which was actually the first one that we killed, was an old old great big old huge male coyote that was most likely probably their daddy. Uh but we called him right off the bat first. Got him killed. Continued calling and uh called up two hard chargers come running in the same time. Got both them knocked down and they were all three of them were males. All three of them are males and killed them all within five minutes. So they was all right there fairly close. Now the big old coyote, we killed him within 40 seconds. You know, we set up right on top of him and then just a you know a couple minutes later here come the rest the other two in. But uh um I think that's a great point that you are that you talked about. Somebody's already noticing that or had that happen here over the last week or two. That that's a thing. I mean, you're still going to have coyotes that cling together even though this is what we consider the the dispersal. Yeah. And another thing with that, you know, when when those male pups or just any pups, but we'll we'll use those males for an example because that's what you most often see. He'll be multiple male pups running together and they may have actually dispersed. All two or three of them may have actually dispersed from their home range. So you may call in two or three pups and you look at their teeth and you can tell they're all yearling coats. They may they may be dispersed but they just happen to be running together. Yeah. And they've you know they may not even be in the range of the adults or they might be kind of in the scenario that you described. So there's a lot of variance due to that trickle effect with bust up into actual up dispersal. And you know, you just you can make educated guesses as to what you think's going on when when you see some of that stuff and you kill multiples that are the same sex on on a stand, but they could truly be dispersed. And one thing that I learned about litters of pubs is we've talked about it a lot about pecking orders. Well, a lot of times you'll have, you know, out of a litter of doesn't really matter how big it is, but the bigger the litter, the more you notice it. So, in that group of six pups, you'll have litter mates that tolerate each other better than others. And so, you'll have two or three pups that seem to get along pretty good. Yeah. That jump on the other ones, right? And so you'll have a lot of times your most subordinate pup of the bunch is the first one to get kicked out because the other ones are tag teaming it. You know, they're jumping on it as a group and it'll get pushed out first as a lone transient. And so you'll have some of that going on and then you'll have other pups that are usually your higher ranking pups that may tolerate each other for a longer period of time. And that's when you get it to where they may disperse together. the adults kick them out. You know, the adults are no longer tolerating them and instead of them leaving individually, they may leave as a group and they disperse, but they're still in a you know two or three litter mates together, right? And eventually eventually with that trickle effect, they eventually bust up too and you get those individual coats that are looking for a hole to fill somewhere and become a resident coat somewhere because we've killed one or it's got hit by a car or they whoop another co whatever the the scenario is that allows them to find a new home range. Right. Right. Right. And you know you was talking about you said you know you get in those situations like say this triple I just brought up you say you don't really you know we have our guesses what was going on there but you know and I mentioned that it was I say they were two litter mates and I do still do think they were litter mates and then maybe that old coyote was was their daddy but hell it could have been uh it could have been one of those situations where it was just two it was two yearling males and they were transits and cross through another coyote's territory. So this coyote the the old coyote that I killed might not have anything, you know, as far as any kind of family relation to those two years. Yeah. Yeah. All of those are possibilities and it's hard to it's hard to know for sure outside of knowing that those were probably for sure litter mates. You know, now if they came in, you know, if you if you kill a pair of them where it's a older coat, you know, it's obviously older. Yeah. And it's got a yearling running with it, then you can you can Yeah. It's probably is, you know, still part of that family group and it's just a, you know, a parent and a litter. How how this all happened. We went in and started playing rabbit. I'm pretty sure it was Ky Cottontail and just right off the bat, this male coyote comes running in and we have to shoot him right on dead run right to the right to the X24. Um just old mangy coyote, you know, not too far behind that old line coyote we killed in Texas with uh with Chris Robinson, you know, one of those type old co and uh and after we killed it, you know, after killing rabbit, we kind of switched into some coyote vocal stuff and I think I switched right into one of the submissive sound, probably submissive beggar and all a sudden two coyotes popped up on this pond dam about 200 yards out and then it didn't take much of them just scanning around. One of them broke and came running right in there and got it killed. Looked up at that third coyote was still standing on the pond dam. So I think we switched to pound town. He come running up. We stacked him right up on top of his brother. So yeah. Yeah. And talking about the, you know, us talking about this type information. I had somebody ask me about the podcast. He said, "Man, some of that stuff that that you learn about them coats," he said, "What difference does it make?" And he said, "Why do you care if it's the" And I said, "Well, if you're just killing cos." I said, "I don't guess it really matters, but it is kind of neat to to if you're out there hunting Yeah. to have an idea of what's going on. I like knowing, even though it may not make any difference on what we're calling or what we're killing, I like knowing that. All right. If I kill two cows and I walk out there and look at them and they're both males or and I look at the age of them, I say, "Okay, well that was probably that was probably two brothers, you know, just it's interesting to know that stuff or I think it is." And I'm right there with you. You know, sometimes that stuff helps you. You may be in a situation where depending on the time of the year, if if we rewind just a little bit and you have that scenario and you know what you're looking at, well, that may tip you off to, okay, I can probably keep kill more cos in this area because you know what that what that scenario probably is because you've learned a little bit about co behavior and how they bust up and how they disperse and right, you may add some coats to your uh to your pile knowing that kind of information and if nothing else just need to know it. I 100%. I I get I wonder if the same person ask because I've had a couple people they'll they'll text or message and be like, "Hey man, I love the podcast, but sometimes y'all get just a little too too deep with this information." And I'm like, "Well, you know, I guess it's just it just depends, you know, what you what you want to get out of, you Like for me, for the coyotes, I I got a great appreciation for them. You know, it's more than just killing them to me. I I think they're a super cool animal, and it's just one of those things I'm interested in. I want to know more about them. And I don't think I'll ever know uh everything, of course. And um you know, I think they're just it's same thing with fox and bobcats and all that type stuff. You know, it's just what I'm into. I like coyotes. I like shooting them. I like calling them in. I like seeing them. not like you know it's just one of those things I want to know more about them and this is part of what we do with this podcast is you know we want to keep it extremely educational and so we going to keep trying to share what information and what knowledge we do know about them like Tori said it's just one of those things that you know the more you know if you get into any kind of sport or any kind of activity or any of that type of stuff you know the more knowledge you have on probably good chance the better you are going to be at it. Uh so yeah, just what it is. Well, rarely do you find somebody that hunts. I know it can happen with with predators where maybe you've got somebody that is they may not even consider themselves a hunter, but they'll kill coats because of predation, livestock, whatever. So, they really don't have that same interest or passion. But most of the time when you get people that are that are hunters and they have a particular animal or several animals that they like to hunt, most of the time they also love that animal and you know there's a they have an interest in it and usually there's some they don't want to see them all killed. You know there's all kinds of of stuff like that and so learning about the animal and knowing their behaviors and it's just most people I think want to know that stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Whether it helps them, I mean, if it's nothing else other than just knowing about the animals, a lot of people want to know that stuff. So, yeah. And just like you said, too, it could add, you know, it could add to your pile at the end of the year. You know, knowing knowing what's going on in a coyote's life and why it's happening and and what could be coming up on the horizon to be happening in the next few weeks and stuff like that. Um, could help you put those pieces of the puzzle together and add a few coyotes to your pile for the end of the year. So yeah, it's just Yeah. And another added bonus on it, it keeps some of this stuff with animal rights people and all that kind of some of the BS that you see if you know Yeah. the truth about the animals behavior and why they acting. It keeps somebody from pulling the wool over your eyes with some of these BS agendas that they put out about animals and you know, stuff like that. So there's some there's some valuable reasons to know a little bit about them. Yes, sir. No doubt. Well, speaking speaking of all this and and talking about this time of year, you know, this pup dispersal in December uh December specific, I say this a lot on podcast for different time periods, but this is another one of my favorite times to be out there calling and not just for coyotes. You know, you got bobcat seasons are in, fox seasons are in, and all that type of stuff. Most of you [ __ ] seasons are in. Um, but one of the best things for coyotes for this uh yearling dispersal time frame and and talking about December, um, it just coyotes will come to a wide variety of sounds now. And what's happening is it pretty much opens up our entire libraries that you can play and have coyotes come rushing in. And so it's that's one of the things that really makes this such a a great time frame to be a coyote collar. Um would you want to talk about that Tori? Like you know about all the uh or discuss that a little bit you know all of our coyotes that are still left out there on the horizon. You know we've talked about you know being so vocal heavy uh at certain times of year and running certain types of you know submissive sounds with certain age class pup sounds and pup fights and stuff like that. A lot of times we ain't talking about like our prey distress stuff, but like right now, man, you there's so many sounds that can produce hard chargers on either a yearling coyote, older coyote, or whatever. There's just so many sounds that we can put into play right now. Yeah, it's uh I'm sure people that have listened to the podcast have heard us mention saving some of our prey sounds. Well, it's that time. This is what we save them for is this time frame because Yeah. Because you've got all of the things you just mentioned. You've got these younger cos that have busted up and they're in the process of dispersing and they're out there fending for themselves for the first time and you know they're looking for opportunity. And so when they hear, you know, a rabbit or a bird or something like that, those are sounds that are probably at the top of the list that's going to trigger cate uh coasts that fall into that category. Those dispersed ghosts that are pending for themselves for the first time. Yep. And raistress will call any age class code any time of the year. Yep. Plus your bobcats and your fox and any predator that's on the landscape. You're calling to them this time of the year. this time of the year, they're in season. You know, most seasons are open for just about all predators during your winter months. So, it's good to start those stands with prey distress or at the very least have them as part of your sequence. And we've always talked about as the as the year progresses, if you start with with den, that's when my sequence is the smallest. And then when you get into, you know, your pup rearing time frame, you add a few sounds. You get to your family bus stop, you're just adding to those same that smallest sequence. It seems like I just add sounds to it. Yeah. And by the time we get here, we've got we're using house, we're using social interaction, we're using pup fights, we're using adult fights, and now we're adding prey distress sounds to that mix. And I'm still using Yep. all of those other sounds, too. Yes. But I a lot of times I'll start with those prey sounds because there might be a bobcat or one of those dispersed pups or something like that close to me. After I run that prey distress for a few minutes, I know you do the same thing. Then you can move through. You're almost repeating your sequence that was working during family bust up. Yep. Yep. In a lot of ways, you're just rearranging and adding a few more sounds to the sequence that was already working. You're picking up those coats that have started fending for themselves. You're picking up those bobcats, fox, whatever's in the area. And you're still targeting those coyotes that may still be in that frame of mind to come to a pup fight or an adult fight or something like that. Vocals. Yep. Yep. And it's and you know, you just you just said it. You know, it's pretty much is the time of year when I'm the most prey distress heavy, you know, November all the way through the bulk of of December. I'm playing at least at least two different prey distress sounds if not three or four depending on what the situation is. Uh and it's all because of you know hey I want to call up I want to call up that yearling that's out there that's hungry. I want to call up that you know those older age class coyotes that are out there hungry. Also if that big old 35lb bobcat is over in a thicket I want him to come to the fox pro. I like killing fox. you know, all those will come to those prey distress sounds. You know, when it gets to this time frame, you know, some sometimes some situations, we're going there's less food out there. So, they're going to react to these sounds, you know, because of multiple reasons. You know, they've got to have more calories in them. It's getting colder out there. There's many reasons why your prey distress sounds work better during this stretch. And plus, you know, these seasons that are in, you know, when it's uh September and my bobcat season's in, yeah, it's cool to see that big old bobcat, but I don't really want to call him up right now. I want to call him up when I can put a bullet in him, right? Yeah. So, that's the reason I saved it. Yeah. And it's, you know, it's that we're talking about the adding the sounds and I'm sure we always do our annual breeding season deal. Uhhuh. But as we add sounds to it, we're adding these prey distress sounds in and before long we're going to add stuff that's targeting pairing coats and then breeding coats. And I mentioned that just kind of going back to knowing about coats and their behavior and that dispersal and that bust up and pairing. You're adding sound. If you know all of that stuff about coats, you know when to add sounds to your sequence and when to rearrange sounds in your sequence to target whatever's out there in that particular time of the year, whether it be, you know, calling those bobcats or calling a particular age class coyote and also knowing what's on their mind that time of the year. Right now, what's on those dispersed uh pups mind is surviving, eating and surviving and learning to function on their own. Afraid distress sounds are at the top of the list now for stuff like that because you're losing some of the that same coat that was in a family group a couple months ago that was in a pecking order situation every day that was triggering to peck and order type sounds. Mhm. Now those coyotes have busted up and dispersed. So that pecking order stuff that was going on every day of their life is no longer I'm not saying that stuff doesn't work and we still add it because you might have some Yep. Like I said, trickle effect with some co still in that frame of mind, but you've got a lot of those cows that are dispersing. So that scenario is no longer part of their daily life and part of their daily behavior. They're not they're not associating with other coats anymore. They're pending for themselves as a and a lot of times a a lone transient. Right. And those prey distress sounds are going to be your number one odds are are going to be your number one sound for calling those type coats. Right. Right. And that just that just makes me think about that triple we was talking about earlier. Uh, you know, we killed the the older coyote right off the bat to the rabbit and then I didn't see the other two coyotes till we started playing, you know, like what our family bust up type sounds were, you know, playing a submissive sound. Now, I don't know for sure those two coyotes could have been on their way from a greater distance and I never saw them coming. They were actually coming to the rabbit and then they just actually popped into view uh with the submissive sounds. But I don't know. I think, you know, if we just played, it's very possible that we could have just played rabbit on that stand. Only coyote we would have killed was that old male. You know, probably changing into those that submissive sound in that fight is what made us pick up that triple instead of, you know, instead of walking out there with a single, we we were dragging three cos to the truck. Yeah. And that's that's the thing with this time of the year is you you have the best way I know to put it is when you're sitting out there making a stand, you need to keep it in mind that you've got a lot of coats on the landscape and you've got a lot of coats that are at a different stage of life and may have a different frame of mind, so to speak, to where you need to play different sounds and have that sequence where you've added the prey distress sounds to it to take advantage of those coasts that are in that frame of mind, pending for themselves as a dispersed pup and still playing those sounds that are hitting cos that are maybe not in that frame of mind that they're going to trigger to a different type sound, right? And uh you just it's a common sense thing to where you know if you've got a variety of goats and at different stages of life and different transitions of of their life cycle, it's just common sense to know that different sounds and playing a variety of sounds in your sequence is going to help you kill more goats. Yep. Yes, sir. Well, one thing I was want to talk to you about, you know, I had, you know, we talked about uh some of these family groups or coyote still clinging together from the family group. You know, we kind of covered that. Um what I was going to transition after that was I was wondering what happens with like resident coyotes versus transient coyotes. Say like you've got resident coyotes that have already established their, you know, their area and say they're, you know, three-year-old coyotes, whatever they are. What does that look like when a transient coyote tries to slip through their area? I'm sure it's usually some fighting. Won't you talk about that a little bit? Yeah, I think anytime. So those transients, whether they be pups that have just dispersed or it may be a coat that's two years old that that is just not a very dominant coat that hadn't found a place. Yeah. But typically you're a lot of people don't know what a transient is or they are under the impression that once a transient, always a transient, and they kind of look at it like it's some old homeless mangy coat that just can't find a spot. And in some cases that that may be true, but most of your transients are made up of your your dispersed pups and and coyotes that just hadn't found a home range, but they're looking for it. And a lot of times in the process of looking for that home range, the best spots on the landscape are already the home range of other codes. So when they pass through those areas, the other the resident coast are not going to tolerate it. They're going to try to keep those transients pushed out. That's why a lot of people will look at these GPS collars or you'll see where somebody's killed a coyote with a GPS collar and they'll say, you know, they get the information back from whoever collared them and they find out that this coyote was collared in this state and this coyote has traveled in almost a straight line 150 miles when he's finally killed in another state. Mhm. And you know, you'll you'll see some of the comments are like, "Well, this this throws everything out the window. You never know where a coat's going to be." You got to factor in, is that a transient coat or is that a resident coat? Because transient coats are traveling looking for a spot. And so that coat has went from probably where it was born and where it became a a dispersed pup and a transient. He's still having to travel because as he's crossing home ranges of other coaches, he's getting pushed out of that. So, he's got to keep traveling, keep looking. And that's why you will see those coaches travel those long distances. And in most cases, at some point, John Collins or somebody has done killed the resident coyotes at this spot. And here comes the transit along and he's like, man, this is a unoccupied good spot. and he ends up in that spot and maybe he is a transient male and you'd have just killed the the paired male that was in that spot and that transient may end up being the pair the mated pair to the female that's left over right there and that's how those holes are filled, right? And so that's how a transient will become a resident, right? and they're just looking for those holes where something's happened. And you also have the case where you you can have a transient come through that may whoop a resident code and take his place and you could have a resident turn into a transient, right? Yeah. You know, that type stuff. But in most cases, they're filling a hole somewhere. Yeah. Well, you mentioned you mentioned that, you know, some people might think that, you know, there's just this old homeless coyote out there running the landscape and they don't never find a place to live. Do you think there is those situations where, you know, are there those older coyotes? And I'm talking when I say older coyote, I'm talking about coyotes that's three, four, five years old, you know, it's, you know, out there in the prime of its life. Do you think there is situations where there are coyotes like that that never find a home? They just keep getting pushed around and keep traveling. I I think there probably is. I think a lot of times, like people have heard me, this is an extreme case, but that that flip-flop coat that I raised, you know, she was crippled. Yep. Odds of her ever being a resident coyote, slim to none, and she just doesn't have the capability to to do it. She's going to get whooped every time. Uh, but I do think there are coyotes, we've talked about it before, where they've got different personalities and they've just, you know, like people, you know, some people are timid and not very aggressive and they're just not very, you know, they're not going to push their way into a spot or anything like that. So, I think in those cases, or maybe they're just they're just wimpy coats. Yeah. and they have trouble ever finding a spot like that, you know, because they may come along and find a hole and they may be the first one to find a hole to where, you know, they they're trying to become a resident right there, but another transient comes along at about that same time that's more aggressive and, you know, just whoops them and pushes them out. And so they continue to be a coat that's always at the bottom of the food chain, bottom of the pecking order, low ranking. And so they just remain a a homeless coat pretty much. Yeah. Or they're tra they're they're they're a traveler, a transient for most if not all their life. Right. Right. Well, like those coyotes that that get in those type of situation, do you think those coyotes would probably sh I mean, and this is just, you know, just pure just wondering. I know it's all going to be speculation, but do you think coyotes like that would probably most likely shy away? You know, you hear people will talk about that they think that sometimes their vocals scare coyotes or like they don't like to howl because they think it could push some coyotes out. Do you think it's possible like those type of coyotes that never find a home and are continuously getting pushed away by other coyotes? Do you think they could be shy to coyote house and other other coyote vocals? I think certain coyotes that could apply to but I I don't think that's the norm. Right. In order for a transient co to become a resident co them making contact with other coats is, you know, they're not trying to avoid making contact. need to test the waters, you know, they need to they need to come in and check things out. And it's not like these these resident coyotes are going to kill them in most place most cases. They're just going to, you know, get their bluff in on them. No different than than strange dogs getting around each other. Yeah. So, the whole trans, you know, you're not going to call up a transient to house and all that kind of stuff. I don't I don't think that that's the norm, you know. I think that those coyotes will come in and make contact with other coyotes because they are looking for that opportunity. They don't know the dynamics of that until they check into it. They don't know that they can't whoop. It's like we've talked about before when when you're howling on your call with whatever howl you choose. It can be that big male howl. the resident coyotes or transients that are listening to it, they've never been whooped by that coat on your call, right? So, they're not they're typically in most situations where they're a resident or a transient or a low ranking pup in a in a pecking order. And I'm judging a lot of this just based off raising coats and seeing the pecking orders. Yeah. and knowing that this particular pup and it may be, you know, a lot of times they're up yearling size where they're functioning as adults by this point, but they're still the lowest ranking coat in that group of coats. Yeah. And they will run right to a how because when you hadn't been whooped by that coat, so they're not lower. That's the one coat when we're calling to them. That's the one coat in the area. Let's just say they're the lowest ranking coat in the in the woods or the area you're calling to. Mhm. And every other coat, they they are on the bottom of the food chain, bottom of the pecking order. There ain't been one coat that hadn't whooped them, and that's the one that's coming out of your call. Right. So, and that's something people need to remember when they're calling the coats and not shy away from I mean look at the amount of coats that you call up and um and sometimes where you're killing multiple when you kill some of those five on one stand or four on one stand or you call in six or seven on one stand. There's no way that all six or seven of those coats are high ranking dominant coats. No, it's a great but they're coming to those vocals just like the other ones do. And so, you know, I think it is possible. I think you do have personality types with coats where they're just a shy coat. They're a timid coat. Yeah. But I think they're going to be timid to come to any call that comes out of your call. They are a lower probability call to call in. Yeah. Yeah. And then but in general, co vocals will call any co any code. Well, I think that's a great point that you made there. you know, the the sound that comes out of your X24, your X360, your Hellcat Pro, whatever it is, whether you're using Boone or, you know, anything. It's a coyote how it's a great point that that coyote that you're that you're howling with has never whooped a coyote that's out there in that thicket or out there in that field or prairie or sage brush flat, whatever. So, that's a that's a that's a great point. And you know, when it comes to stringing sounds together this time of year, you know, I kind of do it in a couple different ways. And you know, there's a lot of stands I lead with prey distress. Uh especially, you know, just like I said, just trying to pick up that that dispersed coyote or that bobcat or whatever before I move into my coyote vocals. But there is a ton of stands that I open up with a coyote how and then go into my prey distress stuff. And I've always looked at it like um just kind of setting the stage, you know, just like we was talking about resident coyotes versus transient coyotes. Well, if you got a a pair of resident coyotes in there and I mean, what's what more will get them on their feet? In my mind, if you rip off a set of house and then just a few seconds later, you go into a a juicy screaming rabbit right there just like, "Hey, there's a new coyote on scene. He just caught your rabbit. You better go in there and do something about it. Whoop him and take his rabbit from him. Take your rabbit from him. Right. So, Right. I mean, and that just time and time and time again that type of sequence works. Yeah. And and going back to the, you know, the are some cows scared of house. You can take any animal. Animals don't think like humans. They don't size each other up like like humans do. You know, a human will look at somebody else and they're thinking, "I better not mess with that guy. He looks He looks like he might be more than I want to tangle with. Might wad me up." Yeah. Animals don't do it. You know, we got we got all these cows out here and you turn bulls into a pasture. I don't care what the other bull looks like. When you turn bulls into a pasture, they're gonna fight until they gonna test each other, ain't they? Until one of them until that pecking order is established. You throw chickens, roosters in a in a spot together, one can be a banny, the other one can be a big fighting game chicken and they're going to fight, you know, until it may not take very long for one of them to establish that pecking order. And coyotes are the same way. And if you've ever watched, just to drive this home a little bit farther, if you've ever watched buck deer that are feeding in the same area, or you've ever watched coats at a feed lot where you have multiple coats that are coming to maybe a a chicken house pile or feed lots in places, and you have I mean, sometimes you'll have double digits of coyotes out there at the same time. You will see some of those coyotes are transients that are coming up there to get stuff to eat. And you'll see the posturing of the more dominant coyotes, you know, where they hackles up, they turn their head over sideways, got their tail, that tail position, and they'll turn their head upside down, show their teeth, and all and you'll see those you'll see those coats give to the more dominant ones, right? But it's they're not scared to enter into that same field. They're not scared to come to where that food source is or where those howling, you know, they still show themselves and get in close proximity. Same thing with with deer or turkeys. You'll have a field that's full of gobblers and you know, you can watch by the way they act. Some of them give to the other ones, but they're not scared to come out there. You know, they're not scared to come to the goblin. Bucks are not scared to get in the same proximity as as other bucks that they know are can whoop them, but they do yield and give and cow to when that pecking order is established, right? Same thing happens with coats. It's no different, right? And so you can call them up with anything. But I was just trying to give people stuff to think about and use common sense on on some of these myths that get put out there that are that just don't hold true. And if you think about it and how animals behave, going back to that knowing a little bit about them, you can you can see where that stuff makes sense, right? To go ahead and click the how you want to on your remote and not be scared to use it. Yeah, it just like you was talking about having different coyotes from different territories coming in the same field. It could be like say a I see guys talk about this all the time like he's feed lot places or places where might be dead cattle or something like that and you shine out there with a you know look across it with you thermal scanning or whatever and there's like just coyotes all over the place and I think it goes right with what you were talking about. They're not scared to enter the same field. But when it's time for those coyotes to go filter back out and go bed up somewhere, you know, those coyotes ain't going to lay two foot from each other. You know, the coyote from one opposite end that, you know, that's part of a different territory from another coyote. They might enter in the same field, but you know, at the end of the day or end of the night going in when it's time to go catch some catch some rest, they're not going to crawl up in the same hollow log and sleep together. Right. Right. Right. Right. They I mean all of that stuff is known, but they're not scared to that whole deal about you how and a transient coyote that's 100 yards inside the wood. He hears it and he tucks tail and runs runs off. Yeah. Yeah. If if that happens, it's that's not the norm. And there's usually I've heard people say, "Well, I howled and every co in the field ran out of the field. They're scared of howling." Yeah. It's probably not that they're scared of howling. there's another situation or they have been educated to call and you know there's usually another explanation for why they ran from the house. Yeah. You know it's it's it's not the how itself that caused it. Right. Or not them being scared of another co that howled if that makes sense. But well you was talking about earlier you know let's start let's talk a little bit more about sounds here. Um, you were talking about, you know, you just keep adding sounds throughout the year. Uh, of course, we talked about, we talk about this stuff all the time. Uh, but we've never done a December specific podcast and we just come away from a family bustup podcast, which I'm still using all those type of sounds just like Tori was talking about there. I'm just adding more to it. Won't you kind of tell everybody what um you know like what you like to play this time of year when you go out to call for coyotes and whatever other species might be out there if you're targeting bobcats and like cat like like like casting a broadest net type thing. What does your what does your type of sequence look like? Yeah. So, because we've got cats and and dispersed pups and all that kind of stuff, usually I will start with some kind of especially if I think there might be a cat there. I'm going to start with some usually two or three different prey distress sounds. And I'm going to mix that between birds and rabbits. Usually, that's when I this time of the year is when I start running birds and rabbits. And I like I like the uh goody woody sound. I like the broke pecker, yellow hammered pecker. uh fly catcher. Those are some birds that uh that I really like. Uh there's two or three more birds, but I like those for the bird sounds. And then on the rabbits, of course, Foxro's got KG cottontail, Mismic Cottontail, and uh from MFK side, I I love rose bush cotton. It's becoming one of my favorite ones. Cotail sauce is good. Broke cotton's good. Yep. Um those are my those are my three favorite MFK rabbits, by the way. They're they're the other you got a bunch of other good ones, but those have been some standouts over last last year or two for sure. Yeah, they all any of those rabbits or any of those birds, I'm usually going to run, you know, three minutes or so of of a bird and a rabbit starting to stand. And then from there, I basically fall right back to that family bust up sequence. Yep. You know, I just go right back into it with the lone house and following that with a pair of group owl right to the social interaction. Then I'll mix a pup fight in there and typically end that with a with an adult fight. And that's kind of what a sequence looks like right now. And then like I said, I'm sure we'll do our annual breeding season 100%. But if people So that sequence is going to get longer and we're going to add those pairing breeding season sounds to the sequence that I just just mentioned. Yep. You know, so Yep. And but what what's it look like for you per I mean you I mean that's it only you know some reason and this is just in just how I've done things over the years. U I have some stands and it's just whatever I'm feeling that day. I don't know what it is, but there's some stands I'll still just open up. And I mentioned this earlier that I'll actually start the stand with coyote house and then go into my prey distress stuff. And I'm generally always given this time of year, I like to give them at least eight minutes or so of prey distress. Now, it usually be a couple different prey distresses. And if I think I have greater opportunity or a great opportunity for a cat, it's going to be, you know, it could be 10 or 12 minutes worth of a rabbit or bird and it could be up to three or four different prey distress sounds. But there's a lot of them that I will start off with a uh set of coyote house, then go into my prey distress type sounds and then just like you said, then go in to on up into my family bust up type sequence with the submissive sounds, pup fights, and then adult fights. And then there are those type of stands that I start off with the prey distress, give them 8 10 minutes worth of it and then go right into my family bust up and start with a house at that point and then go through the, you know, the the submissive sounds and pup fights and maybe a pup distress or two thrown in there. Um, and some adult fights. But I will say there's been many of times when, you know, I might be on the stand, I don't really even think nothing about a bobcat and I do start off with the coyote house and then go into the prey distress after the coyote house and still have a bobcat show up. You know, the coyote house didn't didn't bother them one single bit. You know, it almost makes it look like they, you know, some of those big old arrogant acting Tom bobcats. You know, I don't I almost wonder if the coyote vocals didn't help them come in because, you know, they just they just struck right in there like, "Where's this coyote at? I'm going to whoop its high end and I'm going to take its rabbits, you know, type thing." They bobcats are definitely not scared of coyotes and I've called in several behind house, too. And just to clarify, when I was talking about the sequence, I agree with what you said on those the the length of time on those prey sounds. When I said three minutes, I was talking about typically I'm running, you know, Goody Wood for three minutes and then swapping to maybe Rose Bush for three minutes and then swapping back to maybe Broke Pecker or Ky or something like that for three minutes. So you're getting in, you know, if you just if I run those three three minutes each, that's getting me into that nine 10 minute range you were talking about of prey sounds. Y and to clarify on the whether to start with house or prey distress if I'm blind calling but and this goes right with what you what you just said. If I'm blind calling and I don't know what's there could be a cow cat whatever and and down here that's usually the case most of the habitat could hold a coyote cat or a fox and so if I'm blind calling then a lot of times I'll start with that prey distress first. Yeah. If I, and I do this a lot, I will still locate before daylight. Now, I don't do the locating ahead of time like like we will in the summer, but if I get up, I'm going, of course, I'm always day hunting, so I may get up an hour or two before daylight and ride around. And if I hear coats and I go in there and I sit down and I know that I'm specifically targeting coats when I set down, you can bet I'm starting with a how on those stands. I just I just have a I favor that. Or if it's a situation where I've got a picture of a coyote off a sail camera and I go over and set out trying to I'm starting with house and then going into the uh the prey sounds either right behind those hows or what I tend to do is put them in the middle like right behind those social sounds. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know, we've talked about that before too. I don't know how much difference it makes where you put them in there. I think the main thing is just giving them all of those different sounds from those different categories, right? So that you are triggering bobcats and young coats and old co you're triggering you're throwing sounds that might trigger anything that's listening. Well, and I tell you another thing, too, like if I do have those stands where, you know, bobcat seasons in, say, I'm going and making what I would consider a dedicated bobcat stand. Like, you know, I'm going there and trying to kill that bobcat that I either know is in there or I think is in there. And I might run 15 or 20 minutes worth of different prey distresses trying to get that bobcat out or even sometimes 25 minutes. You know, it just depends. But there is never a time that I, you know, even if I'm there after a Bobcat, say 25 minutes goes by, which is a long stand for me, or it could be the 15 minute mark or 20 minute mark or whatever, there's never a time where I still don't play at least some sort of pup fight or pup distress or adult fight or something on the tail end of that because I don't there's been many many times where I've went through several several minutes of prey distresses and a variety of them and nothing ever shows up. And then I hit a a coyote fight or a pup distress and just burns in either a single or a a double on coyotes or whatever. And I think they'd been laying there listening to all the prey distress stuff the whole time. And for whatever reason, they just did not want to come to it. Um and all sudden bust out to to some type of coyote vocal. So even if I'm doing a dedicated uh bobcat stand, I still finish up with some kind of coyote stuff. even if it's just a couple minutes of it before I get up because you know I always want to kill a coyote. I always want to call a coyote no matter what because sometimes on those dedicated bobcat stands there's sometimes in the back of my mind I'm secretly hoping a coyote comes. Yeah. And and I'll throw in one more tip on some of that and I know you've seen it. I think we've talked about it on on the podcast before, but you could be making a dedicated bobcat stand like that and then and not have one called in yet and then decide you're going to swap over to some coyote type sounds to try to pull in a coyote as a last resort. And there are some sounds that you can choose that for whatever reason I think I've talked about it before and this is the tip sometimes where you think there's probably a bobcat there. you've seen one know and for whatever reason he hadn't showed up on the prey distress sounds and you're going to swap over and try to call a co. A pretty good tip is if you'll use some of those co type fights and pup distresses that have that mixed growling that's associated with a food fight, a co food fight. Yep. 100%. I mean I've had I can't tell you how many people have told me they've called in a bobcat while they're running pound town or table scraps or something like that. And I think this is just theory. I can't prove it. Mhm. But I know this is not this is fact here what I'm about to say. Coyotes definitely recognize those growl and chewing sounds that are associated with a food bite. And my theory is that bobcats do the same thing that they know that when they hear those coats that and those that growling and teeth popping, they know it's food related. And I think some of those, especially those bigger bobcats like you were talking about, I think they have full intention of coming in there and taking the food away from or at least checking out the scenario. They know what's going on. They hear that they know the scenario and then they know there may be an opportunity to to steal something, get in on something. I think that sometimes that's why you have bobcats show up on some of those sounds. And I think it ups the odds just a little bit if you're playing those coyote based sounds and they've got those food fight type growls and you know so that's something to keep in mind if you're if you're dedicated bobcat stand and you're still going to throw something out there at the end for a coat. You can pick and choose some of those sounds that are extremely effective on coats but still may slightly increase the odds of you still you're still calling that bobcat at the same time. Oh, it it totally makes sense because, you know, bobcats and and coyotes are, you know, wherever you'll find one, you'll generally find other. So, they're living together. You know, they're living out there in that area together. Um, you know, there's been times when I've found, you know, say a deer carcass or something like that, whatever happened to it, and I'll throw a trail camera up on it, and you go check that trail camera, and you'll get you'll get a series of pictures where a bobcat and maybe a pair of coyotes or something are in the same picture. So, you know, they they know each other a little bit. And usually that when you see that situation, that bobcat is either standing there all postured up or, you know, his back's all arched up and the coyotes are way out there just in the outskirts of the camera getting pictures of him, you know, like he's he's got the bluff on him. You know what I mean? So, yeah. Well, I already know cuz I listened to another podcast you did. I already know some of your favorite stands or some of those stands where you call coats and bobcats on the same stand. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And that and that's and that's cool stuff. There's been time, you know, and usually, you know, just like I just said, the the coyote usually yield yields to the bobcat. The coyotes will usually kind of veer off. It's like the bobcat gets to ride away. It's and those are cool. Those are cool stands. You know, there's been a lot of times when um you know the the coyote flares off and you never get the coyote and you just get the bobcat. But, you know, we've got in a couple of them situations where we've killed bobcats and coyotes on the same stand and with right there and it's those are cool. You know, that's just awesome stand. That's those are the type of stands, you know, I've said this type this phrase before, but those are the type stands that us predator hunters just absolutely live for. I mean, it's just it just don't get no better really. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's good stuff. One of when I listened, you were doing that podcast with Jason Bird and I heard you talking about some of those coyote Bobcat stands and it made me think of one from some of my earliest calling. Yeah. And I think I was using a I can't remember if I was running I think I was running a diaphragm and FX3 on this stand. Yeah. And I rounded a curb. It was during Bobcat breeding season. I'd rounded a curb in the gravel road the day before or earlier that morning or something. There was two bobcats standing in the gravel road. Well, I just went on through them and I come back later either that afternoon or the next morning. I think it was the next morning and sat down as me and a buddy sat down with shotguns calling this big cane thicket that tied into a river bottom right there where we saw those cats. Sit down and started calling and it wasn't long. Couldn't see very good, but there was a deer trail that come out of that thicket and hit them river bottoms. with the cat had come down that trail and he the only reason I hadn't already shot him is because he'd sat down in behind a wad of eyes and I was pretty sure I could kill him but I was trying to get him to come a little closer. And about that time here come a coyote flying. I mean that thing was come hard charging down the same trail and he got right there to that cat and jumped over the cat or jumped out sideways and that cat kind of growled at him. You heard that cat just Yeah. and and the coyote kept running straight at us, shot the coyote, and all that cat did was just hunker down. And so I just waited. When the cat got up and turned to try to slip the back, he was going to leave. Yep. When he turned to leave, shot and killed the the bobcat. That was stuff right there. Yeah. Yeah. It stuck out in my mind. And when you were telling those some of your bobcat co stories, it made me I kind of forgot about that hunt and it it reminded me of it vividly. But uh we we had a it just reminded me of a stand from years ago. Uh started calling and it was to a rabbit sound. A coyote was coming from a long ways off and we're just like tuned into this coyote making its way in and something happens. We of course you're fixing to figure out what happened. But the coyote holds up on us out like 300 yards and like what you know our wind's good. Ain't no way thing can see us. You know, something's something screwy. So, we end up shooting this coyote way out there, you know, 300 300ish yards. Well, all of a sudden, I look, you know, oh, there's a bobcat. There's a bobcat was coming. And now, we didn't kill the bobcat. The bobcat ended up working off. Didn't come all the way in. But at the end of the end of the evening, we were filming this. So, I went back and watched the watched the video clip. wanted to see what it all looked like. Well, dag on as that coyote's coming and we're just tuning in this coyote. The bobcat was coming the whole time. You can see it like we're dead centered on the screen with this coyote and then like right off the edge of this frame. The bobcat's coming too. They're coming from the same direction. They just didn't know each other was there. Then all a sudden when that coyote holds up at 300 yards, guess what? He saw the bobcat. Yeah. Now what happened? The bobcat was still coming. But when we shoot the coyote, um, you know, a lot of times you can't hardly spook them bobcats, but that that that bobcat got spooked a little bit off that gunshot. But, uh, yeah, but that was a that was a cool stand. And, you know, if we let them if it didn't, you know, if the coyote didn't start to flare a little bit cuz he saw the bobcat, it could have been one of those situations that that we could have killed a bobcat and a a coyote double if if they' have come in a little bit closer. But it was still a cool stand and it was one of those things we didn't see the bobcat till late but after going back and watching that video clip was like good grief that's pretty cool them coming in together like that and then finally the coyote seeing it and like oh gosh I ain't going that bobcat can have that rabbit I don't care yeah that's uh I think the bobcat gets the gets the gohead most of the time and I can if I remember correctly this was a male coyote and it was a pretty good size coyote I ain't going to say he was a giant, but he wasn't no little coyote. It wasn't like he was a yearling. Um, but the bobcat was tiny. He was a little I bet it didn't weigh It was one of those bobcats that would weigh under 20 pounds, you know, like those mid- teens bobcats. He was just a little cat, but he he didn't want no part of it. Yeah. Yeah. I I wouldn't want to tangle with a bobcat either. Them thing is too fast. Got weapons on everything. And I mean time they put their teeth and claws into you and ball up on you, I figure a cow's at a disadvantage most of the time. There there's uh one thing else I want to say before we get off here and this is about u a sound file category that we did not mention that is absolutely dynamite and it's usually d it can be dynamite year round of course. Uh we was kind of talking about um all the prey distress sounds would like to run. always talking about the birds and the rabbits and stuff. Um, but two sounds that stand out in my mind that are excellent, excellent for this time of year are like Fox Pros V Squeaks and MFK's squeaky squeaky. Um, yes, if you don't play those type of sounds, you all heard me say this phrase before, you leaving coyotes out there in the field. Um, those are a couple sounds that I might lead with from time to time in my prey distress uh category. Um, you know, I never had run squeaky squeaky much until last year, last winter after you put it into play and I was like, "Huh, that really works." Yeah, man. That sound of what you said is is 100%. You definitely need to need to add those those bold squeaks and squeaky squeaky. I mean, they're absolutely deadly. I I've got to where I lead off a lot with Prey Stuff with Squeaky Squeaky. I just forgot about it a while ago, but I did uh did the same podcast that you did with uh with Jason and Good. Good guy, too. Great guy. Yeah. Yeah. He was he was bragging on the Foxro listening to you know what we do on Foxro podcast and but he asked me a question. and he said, "What's what's some of your most popular downloaded sounds or what's your most popular download?" Something along those lines. Of course, that's always hard to gauge cuz some sounds have been out a lot longer than others, right? And stuff like that. But I was naming off some of the popular ones and it it clicked with me about that time. One of the girls at the office had told me, you know, they were talking about the amount of downloads and the amount of phone calls over Squeaky Squeaky and the the amount of and of course Fox Bros Bowl Squeaks is has had that reputation for years, you know, as being a really good coaxing sound, but they're not just coaxing sounds. And I think that's one of the things that's that's so good about Squeaky Squeaky is it's a it is a coaxing type sound or what you would typically think of as a coacher, but it has a lot of volume and you can play it at high volume and it just has that lip squeak type effect on them to where I mean for whatever it is it works reason most predators have a hard time resisting those lip squeak rodent type sounds And uh yeah, so yeah, I'm glad you you remembered to mention that cuz I forgot it. And the thing is about those sounds, even though they're they're coaxer sounds, I play them loud. I'll play them way up there in the 20s and low 30s, you know? So, and it almost changes them from a when you do play them like that, it almost changes it from a like if you got a low volume like in the teens and low 20s or right there at 20, it definitely sounds like a coaster sound. But when you crank it on up there in the upper 20s and low 30s, it almost changes it into like some type of almost like a baby rabbit type sound. I don't know. They like it though. Yeah. You start getting the reach with You can get plenty of reach with with those sounds. I mean, we had uh I'm not saying you can reach out as far as you can with with some of the louder rabbits and stuff like that, but you can get a lot of reach with it. Um and it works good. I mean that remind you bringing it up reminds me to that Texas stand where we played squeaky squeaky. We'd have been having really good luck with it and we didn't call anything up on it. Swapped to I think we swapped to broke cotton or something that was pretty loud. Played it for a right down that power line right away. Yep. Yep. And I I'm convinced I think we all were. I was convinced that the co didn't hear squeaky squeaky initially. We swapped to a rabbit but got the coat's attention and then I had swapped right back. And as soon as I swap right back to squeeze come burn it over the top. I think when we swap back to, you know, it's one of them deals where you can you can start and swap around with sounds like that that you know work really good and mix them with some of your louder rabbits and and you know just just one more little trick that you might try sometime. Yep. Yep. Yep. No, 100%. Well, Tori, we've been on here for quite a while. I think we'll wrap it up. That's a good good thing to end it on right there. You got anything you'd like to leave everybody with? Just the usual. Appreciate everybody using our stuff and listening to the podcast. Yeah, we appreciate everybody and and Tori kind of alluded to it. Uh annual breeding season podcast will be coming up here pretty soon. We'll probably have it out here towards the end of December. Um it's always a big hit. it. Uh I do encourage you towards that time frame to go ahead and check out our past uh breeding season episodes, but we'll give you we'll give you another one here and recap on on the high points and give you try to give you some new information u as well. But uh we hope everyone enjoyed this episode. We hope you join us again right here on the Fox Pro podcast.