In this episode, Jon Collins sits down with Zach Hassinger, ZHass, to discuss fox, coyote and bobcat hunting.
Welcome to the FoxPro podcast brought to you by Fox Pro [music] Game Calls. This episode is going to be Fox Calling heavy and we'll probably talk coyotes as well and maybe even bobcats. Welcome back to the Fox Pro podcast. I'm John Collins and we have another new guest joining us. We have Fox Pro Zack Hassinger on the line. How's it going, Zach? It's going pretty good. How you doing today? Doing going pretty good. going pretty good. You having a you having a rough day at the office today or is or is everything running smooth for you? No, it's hasn't been too bad yet this morning. So hopefully everything keeps running pretty smooth. Getting ready to start elk hunting here this weekend. So kind of shifting gears a little bit here. Yeah. Yeah. Well, uh tell us a little bit about yourself, Zach. Uh, I know a lot of people listening probably know exactly who you are, but you know, we do have several that may not. So, uh, give us a little short bio on Zack Hassinger. Well, uh, I run sales, well, I run retail sales and service department here at Foxro. I've been here for five years, but I mean, long before that, I've been hunting with all you guys and using the product. And I had a pretty extensive background in predator hunting whenever I started in here. So that really helped just kind of jump start into the role that I, you know, hold here. So, right, it's helpful. And, you know, we try to keep things moving, keep everybody happy and, you know, keep developing new stuff that's working better and better for everybody. So, kind of do a little bit of everything here as far as that's concerned. You know, obviously I'm doing a podcast right now. That's right. That's right. Well, you're a you're you're a good guest to have on the podcast and that uh you know, just like what you was saying there, it's one thing that I've talked about before in the past and I think it's really cool about FoxPro as a company. You know, I hope nobody ever has to use our service department. But if you ever do, you call in, Mr. Zack Hassinger, who's the head of that department, is a fellow predator hunter and he actually uses the products. So if you have an issue, he knows the all the ins and outs of that. I mean, he actually uses the products day in, day out, night in, night out, um, all throughout the year. So, yep. Fox hunter, coyote hunter, bobcat hunter, big white tailed deer hunter, love bugling elk, love hard goblin long beards. Does it? You do it all, don't you? Yep. If you can call it, I like hunting it, too. That's right. That's right. I think you're That's one thing we talked about uh with JD on the last podcast. I made the comment, you know, uh through like turkey hunting is how I found that I had a you know, a great passion for hunting animals that I can call in. So, and and that's pretty much what I focus on um today is anything that I can call in, I'm probably really going to love it. That's what I want to be hunting. Yep. Yep. I feel the same way. I mean, that's just from just years of, you know, hunting and it just feels it feels so much better when you know you're the reason it ended up there at the end of the gun or his bow or whatever it is. Yeah. Usually usually always means a little bit faster faster paced type type action, but uh you mentioned elk hunting. You're also an elk guide. Is that right? Yep. Yep. Uh archery elk season starts this week in or this Saturday in Pennsylvania. Uh, I got a hunter from Harrisburg. She drew a zone 309 elk tag and uh, her and her pap are going to be hunting with me for the next week or two. So hopefully when we get her a big bull, they're bugling like crazy right now and they're running. They're going to start running real hard here next week. So it'll be I'm sure you I'm sure you've got uh got your eye eye on a handful of bulls, don't you? Been doing plenty of scouting. [clears throat] Couple bulls. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Is that a Is that a pretty good unit to have a tag for? I guess if you get a tag at all, it's [snorts] you're you're doing pretty good. How many how many tags do uh does Pennsylvania give out every year? Uh 60 bull tags, I think it was this year. That's across four seasons. So, yeah, I think there was only 16 total in archery bull tags. So, yeah. I mean, if you draw I mean, if you It's like Kentucky. I mean, you guys are the same way. It's you draw a tag, you you know, you've accomplished something right there. And then after that, it's I shouldn't say it's you pick a litter or anything, but you don't have a lot of competition once you do have a bull tag because like zone 306 where we're at, it's you know, there's two bull tags. And luckily my my outfitter has both of them. So we know where everybody's going to be and we'll get to work. What caliber what caliber bull will you be looking to to take out of there and what is the potential for like size bull like you know say score-wise? Oh my I mean sky's is the limit. I shouldn't say sky's the limit but I mean they big ones can show up out of nowhere. I mean, right now, I mean, she she kind of gave me an idea of what she's looking for, and she's looking around 370 to 380, you know, but obviously bigger bigger ones bigger ones we will take. Uh, they shot they shot a lot of bulls in there over 400. So, so like a 350 bull comes running up there screaming, not killing, hold her off on it. Not killing that. That's the last weaker. Oh gosh. So 350 type bulls a last uh [laughter] a last day last day bull. Huh. Yeah. That's I I tell everybody if I ever end up with this tag, I'll end up shooting at the first 340 that runs into me screaming. Oh, that's what I [laughter] if it was me up there and I I'd be like it's it's 380 plus or bust. I ain't shooting nothing else. I'd be I'd be that guy. There'd be this 320, which is a very respectable bull, comes just busting through the woods, tearing trees down and rubbing, you know, rubbing, scratching his back with them whale tails and knocking bark off some old poor pine tree and then screams right in your face and you can like feel his hot breath hitting you. I'm shooting that sucker. He ain't got a chance. [laughter] Yeah. A few years ago, I had a I had a hunter that, you know, he didn't really have any kind of standards. All he said is he wanted a memorable hunt. He wanted something exciting, you know, a memory that he could take home and he could tell a story of and he could relive years after years. He ended up shooting I think his bull scored like 355, but it was about four step four steps when he pulled the trigger. [snorts] Awesome. Awesome. And that's a big bull. 355 is a big bull. I don't care who you are. It's still a big bull at four steps when you're sitting on the ground. It's a big bull, man. They're all big. [laughter] Spice's big. Yeah. Well, I hope y'all get the 380 plus bull. I'm good. I say she's in good hands. So, yeah. U We'll definitely see what happens. Hey, it might be bigger than that. Like I said, I mean, because it's it changes so fast around here. you're, you know, you're on a 380 herd bull and then the next day four, you know, 400 comes in, runs everybody off. So, and you're hunting. That's Yeah, that's pretty cool that you just never know like, you know, you've got an idea what's in the area, but you just there's always that chance that some kind of just absolute giant that nobody's ever seen could step in the shooting lane as well. That's pretty cool. Because he gets done breeding his cow somewhere else, he's on the move. That's right. That's right. Well, we're not here to talk about elk hunting. Zass, we we call I just called Zack Zass. And the reason we call him Zass is Zack Hassinger. But the deal is they're at the office. What? We got three three different Zachs. We got Zack Dylan, Zack Stains, and Zack Hassinger. So, something's got to give. So, if you're up there, you just yell out Zack, you have like, you know, people squalling out from three different ends of the building. So, somebody had to get a nickname. which which uh which Zach Dylan's got a nickname too. We affectionately call him Little Debbie, but that's a whole another story there. But we got Zass on the line right now. Uh we're going to talk uh we're going to talk predator hunting. We're going to be pretty fox calling heavy, but we'll we'll talk about some other things too. Um the first thing I want to talk about because this is coming up pretty quick when this podcast drops. I think it'd be right before the opener. But I want to kind of talk about the tradition of like the opening night of Fox season. You know, that's something I've noticed about the PA Fox season. When it when it comes in, it's I mean, it's like a freaking state holiday or something. And there's just so much buildup uh for the opening night. You know, they're at the office when I'm calling in, you know, like that week. It's just like what preparation's going on is, hey, who's going hunting with who? Where are we going and how how long we staying out and then it's just it's just like it consumes everybody. So, kind of talk about that that tradition of opening night of Fox season and you know how everybody looks forward to that and and how long you've been been looking forward uh to the opening night of Fox season over the years. Yeah. And I don't even know if you can consider it the opening night of fox season as much as it's the opening night of fur bear season because I mean that's because I mean we can hunt coyotes year round. [snorts] That's not a big deal. But as far as like raccoons, which if we're really going to take it back to the beginning, that's where it started. You know, our little our little league baseball coach used to take us [ __ ] hunting with dogs after practice and everything like that. And then we started and that kind of just got us all into it and then we trapped and everything else. So leading up to that, it was always such an exciting time of the year for us and then it just evolved and you know and then we got Fox Pros. You know I had my first Fox Pro was an FX3. I think I was 13 years old so I couldn't drive. So we we were kind of restricted to the areas we could get somebody to take us to or heck walk or anything. And then just moving on from there. Once we could drive, it was game over. And there wasn't as many people around that did it back then. But me and my buddies, we were all pretty heavy into hunting predators. So that was always a tradition then, too. You know, we'd go whether we went to the movies or out to eat the night before everything else. There was nights we were getting pulled over by the police because they didn't, you know, they just figured we were up to no good at 2, three in the morning, right? [laughter] And then they look I still agree with that. Yeah, true. They look and see in some duck pants and everything. They're like, "What are you guys doing?" Man, we're hunting predators. Now, I think it's it's, you know, it's evolved quite a bit since then. Pretty common deal now. and they know exactly what you guys are doing that time of night, especially when that time of, you know, that and you guys, like you said, you've you've pretty much done that your your entire life, your entire hunting life anyway, you know, and that's I've talked about this before on past podcasts as well. That's that's something I miss out on a little bit, you know, from our younger days is because there there's no rich tradition of predator hunting in Kentucky. Now, there's some fur bear stuff. You know, raccoon hunting has been around forever, which is always with hounds and stuff, but uh but but far as like coyotes and fox and bobcats and all that type stuff, it's not it's still pretty much in its young days of of predator hunting because we just didn't really have that many predators. We really didn't have many bobcats around. didn't have any coyotes and there was fox but there was no night hunting season. So I don't our state doesn't have that rich tradition. Now there's some people and I've mentioned this before too there's going to be some people that will argue that and say they've been doing it for just all these generations and that's just not true because we haven't have haven't had them. So there's states like Pennsylvania that a bunch of these western states where predators have always been there and they've got this rich tradition. I kind of envy that a little bit because I think that's really cool. So that's one reason I like to, you know, talk about the tradition of the stuff. Um, one thing you talked about, you know, said coyote season is in year round. And I know several hunters who hit coyotes year round up there in Pennsylvania. U, but it does seem like when the when the fur bear fur bear opener is, what I call fox season opener, uh, it's every everybody's a hunter then. Everybody calling on that night. It's matter. You can be standing at a stand that you can hear a long ways. You hear platinum gray f gray fox playing three different spots. Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. But you are right, you know, as far as you know, we have had predators for a long time. Um I mean my cousin has my cousin has a picture of our that' be our greatgrandfather uh standing next to a fence post or stringer red fox. No, I mean that's and then anytime you can get because I mean honestly that's one thing I enjoy, you know, sometimes more than hunting is just getting time to talk to just know some old-timers that have stories that have experiences that, you know, they're teaching you things without, you know, even going out and showing you things. And you can do that with predators here because they've been around. We've been hunting for so long. So, I do enjoy that. Oh, yeah. It's like with that that hunting tradition there and you guys talk about pressure. You know, Pennsylvania is one of those is one of the top states and license sales and you know just PA puts tons and tons and tons and tons of hunters in the field every year and it's hard to say how many of those license sales are actually predator hunters. Uh but it's always amazed me like uh say we do the Great American Outdoors show every year there in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. It always just baffles me. just baffles me all the people who come by the booth who are dedicated predator hunters that come to the Fox Pro booth to talk predator hunting to to buy whatever but or maybe even ask questions or just share their success success picks and stuff like that and that show is nine days long and if you work it all nine days it's just a constant revolving door of what I just said happening just guys coming up to the booth either asking questions about predator hunting or sharing their stories and showing off pictures and that it just it just blows me away every single year up there that how many people are just deep just just you know ate up with predator hunting. Yeah, we definitely have a you know predator rich heritage I guess you'd call it and down there great American like you said it's great you talk to you got time to stand there I mean that's what you're there for. you're standing you're standing there to talk and yeah we sell some product and stuff like that but main thing you're doing is talking selling story or telling stories and swapping stories things like that. So that's my favorite part of that show too is just to hear just to hear all that and but but with all that and all those uh you know those license sales and all those predator hunters that come by the booth that means that all those are out there in the field as well. So that brings on hunting pressure. [laughter] So and you just mentioned that like on open at night you can listen in several different directions you hear platinum gray fox blaring out a fox bro. How how does a fox and coyote collar in Pennsylvania overcome the overwhelming pressure that you guys see? Access. I mean access is always your number one [snorts] killer. I mean, you can have the best call, gun, scope, everything. If you don't have access to go hunt predators, you're not going to kill as much. Right. Right. And when you say access, you're probably But you got to have access to ground no matter what. But I'm sure it helps to have an access to ground that not a ton of people have access to as well. It definitely helps having, you know, exclusivity on certain places. And you know, there's been a lot of things that have been done over the years to make sure that you are the only one there. You know, yeah, I've I've bailed hay. I've I've helped with chore. Like I've done a bunch of different stuff just to, you know, guarantee myself access to these places. You know, you think sometimes you think it's just, you know, I just roll up and get these places. And sometimes it takes a little bit extra work or, you know, stuff that needs done that, you know, they feel feel right reciprocating and letting you hunt their property. Right. right now. You'll have to tell me a little bit about these uh game laws and I don't know if you want to call them trespassing laws or rights to cross property line laws, whatever you want to call it, but I know years ago had some guys down here hunting from Pennsylvania for for turkey season. And I've got a lot of ground turkey hunting. I've always been very blessed with that. Don't have as much as I used to. Don't have as much as I used to, but still got a ton of good good ground. And so I'd take these guys out and, you know, be having pretty good luck, be tagging birds like crazy. They may be towards the end of the hunt where somebody still got a tag left and maybe things aren't going exactly right. So we got to get to uh running the gauntlet, I like to say, is just bouncing from property to property trying to find a bird that'll work. But you might be driving down the road and look off and there's a there's a big old gobbler strut out there in a field by himself. And you know they're like, "Oh, stop stop. Right there's a right there's a turkey." And you're like, "Yeah, it's awesome, man. Look at him. Pretty nice bird." And I'd take off driving like, "You you don't want to go after that bird." Like, "Well, I don't have I don't have permission to hunt that farm. I you know, I can't hunt that." And they'll say, "Wait a minute. What? I don't see no trespassing signs. Let's go." And I'm like, "That's not how it works here in Kentucky." So, talk about that a little bit for Pennsylvania. I mean, that's not really how it works here either if you're doing it, you know, if you're [laughter] being respectful. I mean, because here technically, yes, you have to have your ground posted with posters or with purple paint, but right, I mean, you should always have [snorts] permission because I mean, most of the time, 95% of the time, you're doing this in the middle of the night. Yeah. And like heck, even these guys, even the guys that give me permission, you know, I I my my phone is just full of numbers, numbers and addresses because when I sit down and I start planning a night out like, okay, like I'm going to hit this area tonight and I'm going to hit this stand, this stand, this stand, you know, I'm kind of planning my route how I'm going to hit it. I start texting these guys or calling them because letting them know, get Yeah. And like sometimes I'm driving an hour or further to go make these stands. So like I don't want to take time to do that just to have, you know, a UTV run out there in the middle of the field wondering what I'm doing in the middle, you know, in the middle of his field at night. So I mean somebody is trespassing. Somebody in there not supposed to be there. Yeah. Yeah. I mean respect respect is a huge part of it. [laughter] I never will forget that. That is a vivid memory. It's like I don't see no posted signs like [laughter] know how it works here. No. Now, if you have the next property, I'm all for sliding in there and trying to call them off. You know, that always makes you feel good when you can call them off a neighbor. But, Right. Right. Yeah. I always tell people that too. I said because your access on that and the coyotes especially like not as much fox because I mean, you know, you're not hunting fox the same way you're hunting coyotes, but as far as coyotes are concerned, you start calling here and they how and they're half mile down. We have a lot of mountains here, you know. Yep. Yep. So I think that's what saves a lot of our coyotes is that they live primarily up in the mountains. Now when they do come down into the bottom tough extremely tough calling, right? So when they come down into the bottomlands into like into the field areas and stuff, you want to have that access. So when it's 3 in the morning and I call I'm calling in this field and they how a half mile away, I pull up Onyx. I'm swiping around looking like, "Okay, I think they're right here." Well, good because I have access to this farm and this farm right there. So then I can slide in there, get an approach and try to get him killed. Well, speaking speaking all that, getting into the the calling aspect of this stuff, you know, like say the opener furbearer comes in, you know, when fox season is in, are you making stands for fox? Like when you're targeting fa fox, are you making stands that you normally wouldn't call for coyotes or is most of the places that you will be calling is good for both? I mean, I've killed in a lot of those places. I've killed both. But that being said, there's places where, you know, I have somebody with me that, you know, oh man, I really like to kill gray fox. Like, okay, we're going to go here and we're going to kill gray fox. [snorts] So, so you got like spec specific stands where you target one over the other and maybe even reds versus grays. Yeah. And I mean, and and it and there's years it swings. You know, there's years where I'll kill five red fox on a single stand and then for the next three years I kill nothing but gray fox there. It's that swings back and forth because once again the mountains and you know our lowlying field areas. Now granted, you you do get into certain areas in Pennsylvania where it is red fox heavy where you're not killing a lot of gray fox, you know, and if you are a couple here and there, but as far as it goes picking stands, I mean, and that's the thing, you have you have a chance of having anything show up. So, I run those stands early on in the [snorts] season. I run them the same way. You know, a lot of distress sounds. If I have Kai's howl at me in the middle of the stand or at the end of the stand or anything like that, I there's a lot of times where I just shut everything down and readjust to whatever they're doing or wherever they're at. So I, you know, like if if they're hounding at me and they're, like I said, two properties over or something, I'm not going to keep trying to call them there. I'm gonna shut it down, get a better setup, try to kill those coyotes. And then when I make that setup, that setup is straightforward for coyotes. I'm not going to go back through all the prey distress and everything like that. Right. Well, you was talking about like reds versus grays and then you always have a chance for all of them and you know you could have chance at at coyotes on on those properties and stuff. Do you see like a trend far as like the areas that hold let's say like areas that hold red fox versus gray fox. Do do you see something in those properties that make it hold one versus the other? Yeah, I'd say more wooded areas for for great fox or Yeah. So, yeah. So, say I'm hunting I guess I guess say you're hunting a a five acre field that's surrounded by woods. I I am almost guaranteeing I'm pulling a gray fox out of there. Not a red. I got you. I got you. And then on the other end of it, say you're sitting on a, you know, 150 acre field that has one fence row running through the center of it. Most likely we're pulling a red fox out of there. Yep. It's just, you know, it's it's one of those things like you almost always pull the grays out of more wooded areas. So the more wood area you can put around you into that. And I mean there's been different times where we've shot grazing, you know, a space that's, you know, we find a space in the middle of the woods that's, you know, 40 by 60 and we stand there with a shotgun and a red light and we're like, "All right, we're going to kill a gray fox here." And that thing just comes flying into that opening. At some point throughout that stand, you shoot him. But there's no chance at all you're going to shoot a red fox in there. At least I wouldn't think so. Right. Big fields, stuff like that. Yeah. So, like talking about those two different types of habitat and stuff, do you find where one versus the other may hold coyotes better than than the other? Like say like fox, gray fox type country, do you find that's where you find most of your coyotes or is it something different? No, I think they do whatever they want, whatever they feel like. They're the boss, right? Honestly, like I because there's nothing there's nothing that's I'd say we're their main predator. So, yeah. It's not like because I mean you see a draw you see a decline in fox production whenever coyotes start showing up obviously coyotes coyotes start showing up you know this farmer has you know this farmer we've shot red fox their entire life you know he calls you and says about the coyotes or how this or that you start going in there and calling it you notice you're not calling in any fox because the fox moved out so or moved out or got killed you know but you don't really see that with coyotes I think they just kind of do their thing and I think they move through their territory depending, you know, how big or small that is, they just move through it. And a lot of a lot of coes that I kill are on intel. I feel like whether someone's calling me in the middle of the night saying that they're howling or someone's sending me trail camera pictures like, "Look, this thing, this is the third night in a row this thing's been down here, blah blah blah. It's same time every night." You know, that intel gets them killed a lot, too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, like opening week of Furbear season coming upon us. Uh won't you walk us through like your your typical sound sequence that you use for for Fox for the opening week or for the first part of the season? Typical stand. First part of the season. I'm doing a 15 to 20 minute stand depending on, you know, what I'm seeing. Uh most of the time I'll start off a baby cotton tail and that's Yep. Well, just, you know, that's just a classic sound that's just killed forever since it come out. It's It's killed. And I like bouncing back and forth, you know, rabbits, birds, especially if I'm not getting anything to come in, you know, I'll bounce around like I'll run through a bunch of different rabbit sounds, bunch of different bird sounds until I get something that like hooks, you know, where I might be four or five sounds deep and um Ranton Redbird, you know, something comes flying in on Rant and Redbird. I'll be like, "Okay." So the next standard I go to instead of going through all that other stuff, I'll start with Rand Redbird. And if I call something, move it to the front of the list. Well, yeah. Because then if I call something in right away, I'm like, "Okay, there's something with that sound tonight." You know, I don't know if it's the humidity in the air and that way that sound's being projected out of there. Right. Right. Whether it's the fact that that sound's coming out of an X360 or an X24. I I don't know why, but then, you know, I will move it to the front of production. And makes sense. Makes sense. Until it stops till it stops working. And then I always end with platinum gray fox like five minutes or longer just max volume on platinum gray fox because I we killed everything on that sound. Grays, reds, coyotes. I killed uh I killed a triple on coyotes a couple years ago and it was the end of a Fox fan because that was early in the season. I [snorts] had I had had Platinum Grey Fox running for probably five minutes on full volume and all of a sudden I caught just the top of his head coming over this big field hump. I just felt like the top of its head and the way it came up and just turned and you know slid back off to my left. I was like, "Well, that was a coyote." So I stopped, you know, I went silent for a couple minutes and I turned right into a coyote set. You know, I just hit like lonely how. As soon as I hit the lonely how, three dogs come up over the hill, shot one of them, and then put on pound town. And then it was just a kind of a slof fest on pound town. They were running around like crazy. I just kept shooting. Well, that uh you talking about Platinum Gray Fox, that is definitely one of the most famous fox vocal sounds ever recorded. Mr. Steve Dylan recorded that. And that's that's kind of just like a main stay. Is there ever is there ever a Fox stand that you make that you do not play Platinum Gray? No, it's always in the sequence. It's always in there. Because I mean, if we're really going to sit down and if you ask me like what is the highest producing sound of all time for myself, it's that. It's that. Yeah. There's been different times you get you get really late in the season. I won't even bother with any kind of distress sounds. I just go in I play platinum grreyhawks for 10 or 15 minutes straight. Sometimes you're killing, sometimes you're not. And because when you get late in the season around here, like these things have been pressured. They've been beat on pretty good. So they've been missed a bunch of times. Everything else, right? You they got they got to really want to come in. Well, I guess pretty much too. I mean, I've called I've called coyotes to platinum gray uh several different times in the past. Is it's just a good sound for for everything. I'm assuming reds come come to it too, don't they? Yep. Yep. Yep. Well, how about u Oh, there's one thing I was wanting to ask you about. You mentioned Baby Cottontail. I could be wrong about this, but were you part of the crew that recorded Baby Cottontail? Didn't you help record a one of the Cottontail sounds? Not that one. I ain't got I was in I was in on Eastern Cottontail. Eastern Cottontail. Now, see, there's another top producer in my opinion. Eastern cottontail has always been one of my favorite rabbit sounds. Yep. I've used it all over the place. Everything likes the eastern cottontail. It don't even matter if you're out west. They still like eating eating eastern cottontails. [laughter] That's one thing people ask a lot too. Like even people calling in to buy sounds and stuff, they well like we don't we don't have any jack rabbits around here. Right. Right. I know coyote don't know if it's a jack rabbit or it's a snowshoe or it's a cottontail. They just know something's in distress and it sounds good. Yeah. And sounds ta sounds tasty to them. Uhhuh. Sounds easy. Well, you're talking about your you talking about your sequence for Fox Colin there at the first part of the season. Uh does your sequence you mentioned that you know when things start getting pressured that you know you just run a lot of uh like platinum gray. Um, how how does your your fox calling sequences, how do they evolve throughout the year? Uh, what do you do to change it up as the season starts getting in? Say, say say like in the middle of the season, towards the end, all the use sounds, you know, different sounds. Um, [snorts] I mean, you're still I mean, there's only so many different distresses you can go to. I mean, you got rabbits and birds and rodents and stuff like that, but like I'll start using different sounds, you know? I I'll use sounds that I've never used in that area. You know, I'll go start pulling out things like Lil Brown Bat or, you know, like go way back like Baby Porcupine, things like that. Like I'll I'll I'll start dipping into the stuff that you don't think about all the time. And that's the thing. It's like I don't need hundreds of sounds on my call, but like getting later in the season, I definitely start diving in a little more. We we've got a uh a brand new sound that just released in our fall/winter sound pack that I'm pretty interesting to see how guys across the country uh what kind of luck they have with it and really looking to see see how you guys fare with it. Um and that is groundhog distress. We got a brand new brand new groundhog distress. And from what I've seen, Pennsylvania's got your fair share of groundhogs around. Um, have you ever ran any type of like say I mean I don't think we've ever had a groundhog distress in our library to this point. So hopefully you're planning on using it here uh pretty soon. Yeah. I mean, and I definitely [snorts] I don't know. That's one of those things like it it might work great as a distress sound. I think I mean because ground for the for the fox. Yeah. I mean our groundhog our groundhog's den up all winter. So Right. I mean you you know punk punks October October 1st ain't winter yet. No that's true. But in the summer I mean that I mean that doesn't change the fact it could work in the summer and stuff too. You got pups and stuff that are breaking up off the family and things like you're going to kill them kill them with that for sure. Yeah. Well, tell me about uh how do you work uh you know we talk about working fox stands and stuff like that. Uh how do you u what changes like you was talking about hearing coyotes. What do you do? You start hearing coyotes out like man I think I can kill them. What do you start doing different then? You know transitioning from a fox stand to coyotes. Yeah I mean so I guess it's different going from because I mean I kill coyotes too just throughout a fox stand. I mean, I guess I don't want to just they might come in to pray distress or Yeah. Yeah. You get cos at different times where they they'll just show up pray stress and it almost feels like a freebie, you know, like you're in there, you're in there bonus. Yeah, because I mean sometimes they really make you feel like you've worked for them, but sometimes they do just show up on prey distress. But yeah, I mean honestly, if I hear a pack, it's going to depend a lot where they're at. It's like [snorts] I said, like a lot of our field area, our open area that we can hunt at night is down in the lower valley part or in the lower part of the valley and then the entire mountains, which you've seen them, you've been up here, there are entire mountains. Oh, it's rough. There's nothing but trees and it's it's woods, rocks, steep, a lot bigger than what you think. [laughter] Yeah. And that's where they live. I mean, that's where they live. They live up in there and unless they come down into those fields, you know, you have a hard time unless you're going in there during the day. But yeah, if I do hear something like that, so if I hear coyotes, since let's say they are down low, they're in a field, I'm going to restructure the whole setup based off of where they're currently at based off of wind. And you know, I mean, sometimes I mess with how many there are, but I mean, not a lot of times it doesn't I don't really care. But then once I can get in there and get set up and I get as close as I possibly can without them seeing me, I'll just start into it again. And I almost always start with a loan how. I don't even care what time of the year it is. It's what works for me. It's what works around here. Oh, coyote year round. So, yep. Lone. If they don't come in on that, I start bouncing through a couple different things that I like to use. And then, uh, you know, we're always going to pound town or pup three or mixing them up. Fox Fusion. um things like that and that gets a lot of killed too at the end of end of the coyote stands. But honestly, I kill a lot of them after the first couple house. [snorts] Yeah. Yeah. First couple house kill them and then there's been different times where they just are not working and they're up on the side of the mountain. There was a couple different times last year and I hate even saying that I did this because [laughter] it's always starts a debate with everybody is I killed a couple I called in a pair last year at like the 52 minute mark. Oh man. Yeah. Because they just kept answering and they were getting closer and I didn't know. I [laughter] know. And then you took your sleeping bag with you, didn't you? I I killed that pair at 52 minutes and then I turned around and I I called in another parrot like an hour and two minutes. Really? And they all come down off this mountain on off the same stand. Yeah. Really? Yeah. Well, I ain't going to bad, Matthew. It took me that long to walk back to the truck, get everything packed up, drive to the next stand, get out, walk in there. I mean, you already burn an hour doing that. So, and it's not just one of those things. I I wouldn't just do that in every situation, I guess, is what I'm saying. Because I mean, they just kept giving me reason to believe that they were continuing to get closer and coming, and I was like, eventually they're going to come down here. [snorts] Eventually they did. Yeah. Yep. That was actually the first time that I realized how effective those decoys were on the X360 because the second pair, they come down over this hill. They were coming into pup distress three is what the second pair come into. And they they were locked on 360 and they were running full speed and I'm trying to stop them. I muted the call. I'm barking at them, woing at them. They're not stop. Next thing you know, boom, they hit the call. I thought it had it had to be those decoys. They were locked on it. Yep. Yep. Yep. Well, it's uh we've talked about that before, how they can pinpoint things, be pitch black dark, and pinpoint that sound, then they get close enough where their eyesight takes over where they can see those decoys moving. That's pretty wild hearing them thump in the side of that unit. Yep. Let me ask you this. What about um like if you if you go to a piece of property and say there's no real scouting report. You haven't heard no coyotes, but it's one of those places that's good for both. Pretty decent chance that you got fox. Pretty decent chance there could be a coyote in there. How do you work that stand? Is it kind of like uh do you just kind of target one over the other or you kind of like just casting a broad net trying to just bring in whatever broad net? I mean I'm I'm going to run a fox stand essentially at the end of it. At the end of it yeah at the end of it I might let a coyote how rip and just see what see what happens. U another question I had for you for you too. You we talked about uh platinum gray which everybody's heard so much about. Is there any other uh really good uh fox vocal type sounds that are that are extremely effective for fox and coyotes that maybe you don't hear too many people talking about? Uh so I don't know get all my secrets here. I guess you got to give us a golden nugget [laughter] or two. Come on. So there's a couple red fox sounds. Um, when it gets later in the year, I mean, I'm talking like January, February, it just seems like when you mix them in with your call sequence, it makes things happen more often than not. And that's that's red fox rally. And there's a distress that's red fox puppies. Oh, okay. And that red fox puppies, I mean, I've killed coyotes on that. I don't know why the coyotes like that so much too because I've had coyotes where you I mean you know how it is like coyote hangs up way out of range and he's out there mouse and he don't care. He don't care what you're throwing at him and then you're just you know I start running through because I'm like what do I got to lose? What do I got to lose? And that is always a sound that seems like if I bring that into play it peaks their attention and a lot of times it'll you know bring them at least close enough to get a shot off at them. Yep. Yep. I don't know why. I think it's because coyotes hate red fox so much, but the red fox puffies one sounds different than like a gray fox puff distress because I mean they just sound completely different. Well, I will say and this was back years and years ago when I discovered this and I don't talk about this much and I don't run it a ton and I don't know if I've ever showed it on a video. So, this is kind of a golden nugget thing here. years ago, I had a piece of property and I still have it and I have killed red fox off this place in the past and one time, you know, dead of winter, I went in to call this place and I was thinking trying to get one of those reds out of there. You know, we don't have a ton of them nowadays, but back back then we still trip into a few. So, I play through all these hounds, just bunch of distresses and stuff, uh, prey distresses. And then I decide to hit juvenile red fox. I had juvenile red fox on on my unit. And I don't even know what unit I was running at the time. It was probably either it's probably a Fury. Remember the old Fox Pro Fury call? Yep. Anyway, anyway, juvenile red fox. And you know, I'm thinking, well, they should call a red fox, right? I look up and there's a there is a coyote just digging to the call. I mean digging and I pretty much had to shoot that thing on the run coming straight to the call off juvenile red fox. So, what I'm saying is a lot of times towards the end of my calling season when it gets into that February, March time frame, if I'm looking for an offthe-wall sound that I haven't played and still trying to get stuff to come in, I'll play Juvenile Red Fox. And guess what? I've killed several coyotes to Juvenile Red Fox from FoxPro. How many times have you heard that sound mentioned on the podcast? [laughter] Not a lot. See, that's because that's the thing. I mean, everybody folks anymore. It's like, you know, it's a science of what coyote sounds are working, you know, at what times of the year. Sometime it don't have nothing to do with it being a coyote sound. That's right. That's right. It could be a wild animal fox. Yeah. Well, juvenile red fox. I've never caught a fox to it, which I'm not in fox country, but I do know that coyotes will come to it. Mhm. Yeah. For sure. That's true. Well, let me ask you about uh you uh y'all got a bobcat season up there in Pennsylvania. I know it's a little ways off from that, but you've got a knack for getting your bobcat tag filled about every year and taking others and getting them on bobcats. Tell me, tell us a trick on a Pennsylvania bobcat. Oh man. I mean, our season's tough because our season's tough because it's only three. I'd have to check and see what it actually is this year because like you said, it's a way I think it's three weeks and a couple days. Yeah. Basically, yeah, one tag. So, basically coming into December, you can trap them first. So, they have a trapping season. And I know you trapped them before, too. I think you trapped one. Was it last year? I trapped one last year. I trapped one last year because I I I hate I you know I'd really like to wait and call it in but I hate giving up that opportunity for that three week trapping season. Yeah. I mean and I like trapping. Trapping is how most of us started predator you know getting into predators. Trapping taught me a lot about where predators live where how they run when they run what weather patterns you know are best. Like it trapping taught me a lot. If there's a recommendation I have to anybody wants to just learn about predators, start trapping because you'll learn a whole ton. But so I can't give that season up, you know, and like last year, yeah, I trap I trap my bobcat. So yeah. Um, but it's only three weeks and then we go into a three-week calling season and that season is, you know, busy because you're trying to get bobcats killed and like like you get one killed like once I get mine killed and then I got other bobcats showing up like I need people to come and shoot them. So that's right. You took you took Jayce Dylan in there a couple years ago and he killed a monster. What a 32 34 pound cat. That thing looks like a mountain line coming out of that draw cuz it [laughter] That was on the first stand of the night and that wasn't even a stand we were going to make. We were actually waiting on somebody else to meet us. What about that? It was right across from my house. I said, "Come on." I was like, "I've called him out of here before." And I took the call down there, turned it on, and it was within a minute that thing come up out of that draw. And I saw it come up and I was like, "Oh man." He goes, "Is this a cat? Is it a cat?" And I was trying to keep him from getting too worked up. I said, "Yeah, it is. Yeah, it is. Just, you know, just go ahead and shoot him whenever you're ready." And he shot and that thing. He did. He didn't let no grass grow underneath its feet [laughter] too for sure. It didn't take him long he shot it. Yeah. I think within a minute and a half that thing was on the ground. And that was a new sound at the time. That was a um that was the first cat I called in with cocktail sauce. Oh yeah. From MFK. Yeah. Yep. And then the rest of that season I called in three more on that same sound. Two of which got shot like that. That became natural pauses in that in that sound. It's really, really good. That became my money sound for bobcats. But a lot of what the bobcat is is it's a matter of being inside his bubble. I think when like a bobcat's not coming from, you know, hundreds and hundreds of yards into this call, I don't feel like I feel like bobcats around here um when you turn the call on, if they're within a couple hundred yards, they're going to come take a look. They're they're coming. Yeah. And like you said, not just because y'all's terrain type and everything else. I mean, you just got to be within that bubble or you're just not going to see them. But you still have not told us what the secret is. What's the secret? Is it scouting? Just being in the right place at the right time, playing the right sounds? What is it? I hate to say it's scouting, but I mean, it's scouting. It's It's knowing where these cats are and where they've been and trail cameras and everything like that. I mean, just like that one J shot. Like, it's not that I knew there was a cat in there, but it was a good chance because I called them out of there before about that time of the year. So, whether they been in there, I don't know. Um, and then previous callins throughout the year because I we called them in throughout the season. We just can't shoot them, right? So, you know, you I have a whole season of knowledge that I've already called and like all season long I've called in eight cats up until cat season. So, I'm going to definitely go back through those stands, you know. And once I get back to those stands, you know, you said you hate to say that it was scouting, but you know, y'all got a very short season. Very short season. You only get one tag and y'all don't have a The reason y'all have a short season and only have one tag, y'all. Not just they're not around every tree. You know what I mean? So the the population density up there is not like it is in some other states where you have unlimited uh you know bobcat harvest. There is no bobcat harvest limit. So scouting goes a long way. You can't kill a you can't call up a bobcat or kill a bobcat where there are no bobcats. That's true. You got to use the tactic. [laughter] I just didn't want to make it sound like I'm sitting field edges waiting for me. Knife. I'm out here scoring bo scoring bobcats. see which one I want to kill or anything. Ah yeah, that one J that one Jay shot was one of the biggest ones. The very first one very first one I ever trapped was a 35 pound male and it didn't he didn't have a tooth in his head. And that one J that one J shot [snorts] was last year before it was 36 pounds. So that was monster cat. Always big. Monster cat. Well, let me ask let me ask kind of switch gears on you just a little bit. Um, you still do with bobcats and fox and coyotes and all that stuff. But I want to talk about your your night hunting. That's when you predominantly do it. Uh, you hunt with thermal, of course, but you also run lights some, too, don't you? I know last year y'all killed some fox over white lights. Yeah. No, I mean I still that's how we that's how we started. So I still and I think [clears throat] I think when there's a party of you because I mean that's how when we started hunting there was always somebody standing up running the light. There was somebody sitting down on a chair with a gun on a tripod and there was somebody either kneeling or sitting on another chair with a shotgun. [snorts] That was the traditional setup for a predator hunt. There was three of you, you know, and there was a light and everybody watched the light and everybody got to take part. Now, I mean that we switched to primarily thermal hunting and stuff like that. It just doesn't feel as party driven, I guess, you call it that. I mean, yeah, it's not as much of a good time to like get together with your buddies and go because realistically, I can go by myself. I don't need anybody to hold the light for me. So, if I feel like whenever we get a group of us to go, we like running lights because it's it's it's a good time. And I mean, and we we sell lights, so you know. Right. Well, we've got we've actually got new lights out uh for the Well, actually come out this past winter, but uh we got a new set of lights out, and they're Yeah, they're awesome. Exceptional. Exceptional. Why don't you tell us a little little bit about them real quick? Well, it took Gunfire I mean, and the gunfire was a good light. Um you know, it it had some downfalls and things that needed worked on. And then we came out with this quad fire light. Now, the quadfire light, it's got four, you know, four colors. So, you got green, white, red, and IR all on one spinner. And then it's a little bit shorter and I think it's a little bit lighter, too, but it's got a bigger battery. Yep. So, we came out with a Scanley version and a gun mounted version, which we we've used both. I mean, they're both great. Um, but um Yeah. So, and they're super easy to run. I really like running them. I like running lights. So, that just played right into everything, I'm I'm all for it, you know. And like I said, we make them here. So, or we sell them. So, when we had a chance to use them, I'm like, absolutely. And I think we had we had a great time. We had a great time that night. You know, we I think I messed that up for us that night because we shot very first stand we called in a red fox double that I shot. The very next stand we called in a gray that I missed. And then the very next stand after that I called in a coyote that Cody shot. So I messed it up. I messed up the you know red gray and the coyote last year and that was all off light. That was off white light. Yep. Yep. Yep. So pretty it's pretty cool. It's pretty cool. Especially when you talk about you hear people talk about running lights. They're always talking about red light. So, it's pretty cool hearing people talk about running white light up in PA. Yeah. Plus, there's no evidence then either. Well, there was for us cuz we had a camera, but you know, the thermals, they film you and they let you know how bad you missed the shot. [laughter] At least with the light, you like, man, I don't have any idea what happened there. I must have hit. I swear I was [laughter] right on him. I swear I was dead on. Gun must be off. That's right. Who shot this gun? Uh, I got a I got a I got a few questions I want to We're getting here towards the end. I got a few questions I like to ask you. Okay. Would you rather call in here come up on this fur bear season? Would you rather call in a fox or a co? [sighs]
Probably probably gray fox on a shotgun stand. Gray fox on a shotgun stand. So you're what you're saying is if a gray fox and a coyote runs in the same time, you're you're shooting a gray fox first. They run the same time, shooting them both. Shooting them both at the same time. [laughter] No, I mean if they ran at the same time, I'm absolutely shooting a co. But if I had to pick ideal stand, probably shotgun gray fox because I mean gray fox, they're vicious when they come flying in there sometimes, you know, and it's bad. But if both come in at the same time, you're shooting the coyotes. What you're telling me though? Absolutely. Because I've I've hunted here my whole life. I know how much harder it is to shoot the coyotes than it is to shoot. I probably call that fox in a couple nights. I was going to say them crazy fox. You could if you called in that uh that coyote, the baby cottontail or eastern cottontail, and they both come running up there. You shot the coyote, you probably flip on platinum gray and get another chance at the fox. That's no joke. [laughter] because like that's and all the guys that work for me too like we've all I've taken all them hunting a bunch of stuff and they pretty much hunt they all hunt out just by themselves. So one of the first nights I took them I called Gray out and the one guy shot at it and he missed and it run back in the woods and I told him I was like just relax. I was like I'm gonna call him back out. So I you know 30 seconds of silence or whatever hit Platinum Greg in here he come back out the other guy shot at him. He missed him too. I said, "Well, at least everybody's having a good time getting That's right. It's getting everybody's getting some [laughter] shooting in." [clears throat] Cuz you do you do that a lot. You could call Grey Fox back in even after they get shot. Yeah. Shot at. Well, what give me uh what you what's your favorite caliber choice for Fox? [snorts] Probably get some hate for this. It's 6 millm Creedmore. [laughter] Well, you know you're going to be able to take care of that co when he runs in there, too. That's right. You got to have something that's going to plan everything. And I mean, I'm sure I', you know, get in trouble for that, too. But because there's other calibers that will do will do it all, but I like six millimeter because honestly, if you don't hit anything, you know, they're just punching right through pop, they're done. Yeah. I mean, if you hit anything, I mean, you can hit something with a 223 in the shoulder, it's going to blow it up. So, yeah. Yeah. I've shot a ton of different calibers over the years and you know short of shooting with a 22 LR and having them run 150 yards before they die like that's 6 millm you're you know you work at Foxro but you're also a listener of the Foxro podcast from time to time right? Yeah. And you know, we have the question a lot of times at the end, you know, if your life depended on it. You know, if I dropped you off in the middle of nowhere and you had the call up a coyote and you know, you got one bullet and you had to take that one bullet and kill it and drag that thing back to the helicopter to save your life type thing. Now, what caliber are you taking? And the funny thing is is how this question originated from, you know, a couple different things that all come together, just some conversations with buddies and then, you know, Facebook posts. You see people talking about all these crazy calibers and stuff. You know, they might be talking about like, "Oh yeah, yeah, the 17 Remington is the best caliber I've ever used in my life. It's so f friendly and it just kills everything that comes in. And you don't have, you know, just just going on just, you know, talk just really talking that 17 Remington up. And I've shot a 17 Remington. I've owned 17 Remingtons in the past. Or you might hear a guy talking about a 17 HMR, a 204, a 223, whatever you want to pick. You're like, really? You would you really think the 17 Remington is the best thing that's ever been produced? And they're like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And so you're like, so if your life depended on it, your life depended on like if you had to kill a coyote to save your life, you're going to take the 17 Remington. And you know, then you guys go guys, well, no, I wouldn't take the 17 Remington. I would take a 243. I take a street or what? Okay. So all that BS you was talking about, how awesome that [laughter] it's just is just BS. And so one thing he come up with is like Z has he he works for FoxPro. His main part of his job is being a resource to you guys if you have issues out of FoxPro to be able to help you guys out. But he also has the opportunity that he goes out in the field and hunts for Fox Pro. So like his job depends on part of his job depends on him downing animals. You're not going to take something that's that's u you know maybe marginal, right? You're going to make sure you're killing something if it comes in there, right? That you're shooting a sixreed. That's right. Cuz I mean I've been down I've been down that other road. I've been down that other road where you stick one right in the shoulder right to the point of the shoulder and it runs 150 yards. Oh gosh. It's just like it's just like Mike Dylan send you on some trip somewhere. Hey, we need footage of this calling coyotes. We want to see them called in close and killed right on the spot and all this stuff. And you go do the trip, you come back and they said, "Well, how'd you do?" I said, "Oh, we we called in, I don't know, 10 or 11 coyotes and shot eight of them." I was like, "Oh, so you got some good footage." Like, well, it would have been pretty good, but they all ran off, right? No, I want them anchored. And that's I mean cal I mean caliber you know varies slightly but right in that realm of like 22250 6 millm creed more 22 creed right in that realm there somewhere usually your anchors. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] Well we we could go down a long path and a tunnel here talking about calibers. We always get sidetracked on this stuff. [laughter] Hey, I remember when you and a crew went to Tennessee with a dag on 410 to get me fired up on this stuff. What happened? What happened? This guy didn't have a What happened? Yeah. What happened to come back with no damn turkeys? Now we got No, we got one that I shot with 12 gauge. There we go. There we go. We shot two. Hey, I didn't have the 410. That's not my I will say I did shoot one with 28 gauge this year. Hey, 28's a little different than a 410. A 28 is like three times the size. Hey, do you know what a 410? If you converted 410 over to caliber, you know what it is? What? Or if you take a 410 and convert it over to gauge, do you know what it is? No. What is it? It is 67 gauge, I think. We'll have to look that up. You guys get on Google and Google that. What is 410? And it converted to gauge. I'm pretty sure it's 67 gauge. [snorts] [laughter] Yeah. Now, he said to me, "No hate mail. I know 410s with TSS will kill them and all that stuff." But hey, we've got an old podcast out. I think it's called Fairy Diddles and 410. Y'all ought to go listen to it. [laughter] It's a fun one. Zass, I appreciate you coming on here. I know you got other things to do. I'm glad you come on here and talked about fox calling, bobcat calling, and coyote calling up there in Pennsylvania. Appreciate you, buddy. Anytime. Anytime. I enjoyed it. Do you have anything that you'd like to leave us with?
I don't think so. I think we covered it. Um, I guess you know, we're here to help. If uh if anybody needs anything ever and we're in this office, you just give us a call. Yes. Because I mean, we're here. We answer the phone. If we don't if we can't get to it, we'll call you back as soon as we can. That's what we're here for. We pride ourselves on that. Say if somebody calls because I see us every once in a while. They'll call they'll say, "I've been trying to call. I can't get through. I can't talk to nobody." And I'll ask them question. Did you Did you leave a message yet? If somebody Yeah. If the phone lines are tied up or maybe you have to go to the bathroom, ZS, whatever. If you don't answer and there's an opportunity to leave a message, if they leave a message and give the info, you will call them back, won't you? That's right. You stay on there until you can leave a message because as soon as you leave that message, you're getting a call back for sure because we can't do anything if you know you're hanging up and calling back. Hanging up, calling. Can't really do much about that. But if there's a message there with a name and number we can call, we're absolutely calling you back. Well, Zass, I appreciate you coming on here. Thanks for everything that you do for us in a predator hunting community, being a good resource. Pass on that to your crew uh there in the service department because we do appreciate you. We hope everyone enjoyed this episode and we hope you join us again right here on the FoxPro