On this episode of the FOXPRO Podcast, Jon Collins is joined by Brice Hensley of Fox Trot Ammo as they discuss shotgun ammo for predator hunting.
Welcome to the FoxPro podcast [music] brought to you by FoxPro Game Calls. [music] We're back with another episode of the FoxPro podcast. I'm John Collins and today we're joined by Bryce Hensley of Fox Trot Shotgun Ammo. Our topic of discussion is shotgun ammo for predator hunting. Bryce does tons and tons of testing and you'd be hardressed to find someone who knows more about TSS coming out of a shotgun barrel. Bryce, how you doing, old buddy? I'm doing good, John. And thank you. Thank you for having me come on today. Yep. Well, we was wanting to do another shotgun episode. And of course, you know, uh, TSS and the shotgun world has kind of, or I guess we should say TSS has kind of hit the, uh, predator hunting world by storm and other, uh, areas, too, like, you know, turkey hunting, everything else. And I couldn't think of anybody better to put on here, uh, than you. So, I'm I appreciate you coming on. Yes, sir. I I appreciate it. Also, why don't you uh why don't you tell everybody a little bit about yourself and about uh, Fox Trot before we get started here? Well, I'm a 55-year-old North Central Indiana hooer that loves to hunt everything. You know, you're looking at the, you know, from deer to turkey to waterfall and also coyotes. Um, started Foxt Trout Ammo in 2019 as an actual business. That's when I was approved of the FFL, everything else that goes along with it. But, uh, been loading TSS for quite a bit longer than that. and uh just love seeing it grow the sport every day, especially uh you know the turkey, the water foul and uh coyotes with with shotguns. Yeah. And everything is growing right now. It seems like far like you said, everything that involves the shotgun predator hunting is still trending up, which kind of baffles me. Every year I think it's plateaued out. Seems like it just grows and grows and grows. And of course, water foul, it continues to grow every single year, seems like. And we're seeing a good resurgence in turkey hunting. You know, it seemed like turkey hunting turkey hunter numbers kind of slacked off there for a while, but seems like they're they're trending back up now. Yes, sir. So, uh we're going to talk about shotgun and coyotes. Um nothing new. Shotgun and coyotes been around forever and there's been uh uh there's definitely been a few advancements over the years in shotgun effectiveness for predators. And two of the biggest are better choke tubes and TSS shot. So, we're going to discuss lead shot, TSS, other shot materials, gauge sizes, shot sizes, choke tubes, and all kinds of other stuff. Just if you like shotguning, want to learn more about it, this podcast episode is for you. So, Bryce, the first thing I want to ask you about. Uh, for one thing, you know, this is going to be pretty TSS heavy. Um, and the benefits of TSS is undeniable. Um, there is one con though, and that is the price. Um, the price of TSS is actually went up quite a bit over the past year. Um, and I'm sure you can tell us why. What what what has actually caused that? Well, it's not just the amount of hunters using TSS that's the problem. Um, it's the availability of the shot. But even that right there, I can buy as much as I want. I just got to pay out the nose. The price of TSS, the tungsten ore, has quadrupled in since last spring of last turkey season a year ago. We've seen the price coming and uh you know, talking with my suppliers, American and Chinese suppliers that manufacture the shot itself, it it rose very quickly around July into October of uh 2025. Mhm. And with that, of course, you're going to see that the price per shell. And on my end, you know, as a business person, um, with an FFL, I got to pay XIS tax. Um, you know, you got to incorporate everything you do as business. You got to pay to keep the lights on, keep a business going, and buy more product to work with. And with that, it has went extremely high um, in all fronts when it comes to these shells. But, uh, it's not it's not the end of the rainbow for TSS. You can still buy TSS. Um, it, uh, it's just very, very expensive right now. Um, my prices a year ago hovered right around $70 for a box back and forth. And then, uh, one way or the other, you know, it could be $55 for the the 20 gauge up to about 80 on the on the 12 gauge 3 in. But, uh, when when you got to pay basically $200 a pound for the actual shot and then, you know, get it loaded, get it marketed and shipped and pay the excise tax, you know, that that reflects on the what the box cost right now. Like right now, without me buying any other shot, I'm it's $110 for a box of uh the 12 gauge 3 inch ounce and 78 like the number threes. Like right now, I got all I got is just number threes. But, uh, the next time I order, which is going to be soon, I don't know how much higher it is, but I'll be finding out here pretty soon. Well, you know, it's a pretty big hit. you know, any any company that one of their main items that they need to build whatever they're producing, if that one part quadruples in in price, which you know, the shot is one of the main things that goes into a shotgun shell, there's, you know, you don't have no choice. But, uh, but it the stuff's just going to be high. Um, it's kind of wild that it quadrupled. I mean, what what's all went into to that besides for the demand? I mean, is like some of the recent war stuff had anything to do with it? Uh tariffs, stuff like that. I mean, what all goes into that that price just quadrupling like it did? Just all of a sudden quadrupling? Yeah. Well, the tariffs itself is insignificant on the price increase. Um, if all I had to do is worry about the tariff and not the quadrupling of the tungsten ore, I would be very happy. I would pay it and not think about it for, you know, at all. So, it's just a material. Just a material. Yes, it is. And and you could say globally it is because of war. Um, China produces 80% of the world's tungsten supply and America under well the previous presidency they could have capitalized on the tungsten ore that's in our country and countries that are friendly with us and got production running you know four years ago five years ago and that never happened. Um, right now it's just like it's like catching somebody with their pants down around their ankles. When China does this globally where they kind of pull that tungsten or back, they want to keep it for themselves because of their aspirations like on trying to take over uh what the Taiwan um of course under Biden um our military depleted everything. Trump last year, well for 2026, he started it last year. They invested a trillion dollars for the military. Now, that's of course that's in a wide variety of things. You know, that could be missiles, rockets, planes, tanks, you name it. And uh, of course, tungsten products for the military. That right there has to be done um by Americanowned company. And you know, the stuff that comes from China cannot be used for our military. Okay? So that's that is not the problem there so much. But because they're doing a trillion dollars this year, they're doing$ 1.5 trillion next year. Uh that whatever we had for supply here in the states, it has like there's no American company producing it for the hunting industry right now. Okay. So yeah, the one company did they stopped. So what does the future of TSS look like? Well, as you see, the prices are extremely high. So, I don't see a problem getting it. Um, unless there is an allout war with which involves China with, you know, trying to take over Taiwan. Yeah. If that happens, then of course we're not going to see any tungsten shot um from them at a, you know, at a decent price, I would add. And I will say one thing about Chinese shop, the American company that produced it, it wasn't as nice and as good a quality as the tungsten. Oh, really? It is still it's still TSS. It's still the same density and still pattern and kills turkeys and coyotes. But the just not as round or what you talking about? Not so much not not so much as round. It's not as shiny and highly polished. Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah, I get it. And Yep. you you can see a difference in patterns. Um maybe not so much from like number twos and threes and fours that we would use for coyotes, but like in the turkey smaller shot world, the [clears throat] smaller shot, you can definitely see a little bit of a difference. You know, you can see a 10 to 15% difference in patterns from there. Really? That's more than I expected. That's crazy. [snorts] Huh. But compared to lead, there's no difference. I mean, even even the worst shot that I've ever had a load with is way better than lead. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, that's one thing to say, even though we're talking about TSS quite a bit, you of course there's been a gazillion coyotes killed with traditional shot, lead shots, stuff like that. So, we're not saying nothing bad that you can't use lead and get coyotes down, but like we was talking about, like I just mentioned earlier, um there's undeniable benefits with TSS. Uh the big one is an increase in effective killing range. Um so that leads me right into the next thing I was want to ask you. What is the actual energy and penetration difference between traditional shot and TSS? Well TSS and lead you almost can't compare it. Um people just about have to experience it themselves to fully understand. Totally agree. Totally agree. You can you can show all the videos the difference between TSS, tungsten shot, and lead shot and like the gel penetration test. Yeah. And people still don't understand because a lot of these penetration tests, they're only done at like, you know, 40 yards. Um maybe 50. But the main difference is of course the p the density of the shot itself. um when you when you can take a number four bird shot size TSS and I cannot tell you the actual diameter off the top of my head uh what that would equate to to any lead about the same density. So if you took all things the same where the actual weight of the tungsten shot and a lead pellet of the same weight of course the lead is going to be twice as big. Yeah. And when you go with something that's twice as big as what the like the number four tungsten is, you lose pattern density. And that there's just the beginning of the differences because from say 50 yards out to 100 yards, your TSS number four is still going. Yep. Where where lead of the same weight, you you've lost your pattern density. And then from from 40 yards to 50 yards to 60 yards, lead is slowed down so much that shooting, you know, 70 80 yards at a coyote with lead. Yeah, you might get some pellets in him, but you're not going to kill it, right? I mean, if you kill it, you got the holy mary, you know, where it just hit in the head or something like that there and and it it's dying. But, uh, for the most part, TSS is going to keep going strong. And that is the major difference is is if you don't know your yardages, the the tungsten shots going to save your bacon. So what what is it that that makes it you know you know my weak mind just can't comprehend it. So I need you to explain it to me a little bit better. What makes it actually pattern so much better TSS over lead? So when you when you shoot the same ounce load between lead and TSS um for that weight, the lead has got, you know, it's larger shot. Yeah. And so there's less pellets. Yeah. um your uniform pattern density from tungsten shot. Being able to shoot a number two, number three, number four, or the 2x4, the duplex load is your pattern is so much better because of the smaller shot sizes that are still effective out to 80 to 100 yards. Mhm. Um, yeah, that it's a huge difference because when you shoot the 12 gauge load at at 100 yards, you know, you might have five pellets that might hit uh 20 by 20 sheet. Yep. Where where the uh the TSS um I've shot patterns that had, you know, like 30 to 60 pellets on a 20 by 20 sheet 100 yards. At 100. At 100 yards. Yes, sir. Yeah. And the difference at 100 yards with traditional lead versus uh like that TSS, a lot of that lead just bounce off stuff. [snorts] TSS is driving in there. It's crazy. It's crazy. Yes. And you hear about people killing coyotes that far. What What's the furthest you've ever heard of hunters taking coyotes with TSS? What you know, like some of the uh feedback you get on some of your stuff that you're producing? I've I've heard 120 yards plus. Oh my gosh. Yeah, that's crazy. Yep. And that's with straight number TWs. Um I know the 2x4s have killed them at 100 yards or more. Um number threes, there's not a lot of guys that shoot the number threes. Um I don't know why the number threes is like one of my favorite. Um that's what I really started uh pushing about four years ago and uh with a 1 load and you know we killed some coyotes with it. We killed some hogs with it and it's very effective speed kills and but it's a 1 oz load. You got other companies out there with a 2 oz load or two and a quarter ounce load and everybody wants heavier bigger you know payloads because of that pattern density. But in this day and age when the prices have quadrupled and you're you like like my prices have doubled online what I would have been selling it for a year ago, right? And you know, I mean, it's like, okay, so it's a savings going with a smaller payload that might be faster and uh you know, you you can you can effectively hunt and kill just as many with a with a smaller payload. Right. Right. But you know, he's talking, you know, like the price and cuz you see a lot of guys, you'll be talking about TSS. You'll see a lot of guys like on some of social media posts are like, "Man, y'all crazy to spend that kind of money just shoot a coyote, you know, just use regular lead or or whatever." Well, you see, there's been u which there's always been some shotgun only coyote contest, but seem like there's a few more nowadays. And guess what? That's like if you're thinking you're going to go hunt one of those and you're going to win it with some lead, you better have a lot of coyotes. You have to you need to have a lot of coyotes coming in no matter what. But exactly. [snorts] I don't know. And maybe I'm wrong, but the guys have been want winning these things over the last few years. I guarantee you they've been shooting TSS these guys because I mean, you know, when you got money on the line, a belt buckle on the line, bragging rights on the line. Yes. You're going into a shotgun hunt, you better you probably better be packing some TSAs. [snorts] Absolutely. And I'll tell you right now, it it shocks me to hear the money that's involved in some of these um especially out west. Mhm. You know, 30 40 $50,000 to win a contest. Um yeah, you you better be taking the best that you can. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, uh, you know, there's a lot of things that can make a break, make or break a coyote stand or make a break, you know, after you pull the trigger on something, whether it's going to knock it down or not. And you said it earlier, you said you kind of have to see it for yourself to believe it. Um, I'd kind of swore off shotguns. Um, I used to pack a shotgun quite a bit, just use some, I don't know if it was copper plated lead or just some kind of traditional lead shot BB's. I used to shoot that quite a bit and would kill some coyotes and I'd also have a lot of coyotes get away. I shot some number four buck. Um, shot some of the I don't know what the heavy 13 I guess dead coyote stuff. Killed some coyotes with that. Also had coyotes get up and run off. And I'm talking about coyotes that was you know I had that bead right centered up on them and shoot them at like 40 yards and knock them down and they next thing I know they're get up and hobbling off and you never find them. and then, you know, decided to try the TSS stuff. Um, and you're talking about taking the majority of the shot that I that I've ran is number the number four bird shot. Um, and you know, going from the BB's, the T-OT, dead coyote, number four buckle led, the BB led to. Um, and watching, you know, having coyotes get away more often than I wanted to see it. and then going to that number four bird shot TSS and just watch them just like you just man like a bridge fell on them or something. I mean it was just like you know I don't even know how to explain it. I mean it was just when it hit them there's no flipping and flopping and rolling and spinning. They're just dead. I mean they just hit their ground stone cold dead and you can shoot where I was scared to shoot something over 40 yards. You know if I was I'd be looking like my like 50 yards was like my limit. I was like, man, I got to have them under 50 for even have a chance of getting these things killed with my, you know, traditional loads. And now it's went to like, man, I just want to see them get in inside 60. And I've killed no telling how many. I shouldn't say no telling how many. I've I've killed several over 70 yards with number four birdshot TSS. And you know, when you see that stuff, you see the how it hits a coyote and what happens after it hits a coyote, it you see the difference. I mean, it's very apparent. Yes, sir. You know, at 60 70 yards, when when you see number four TSS go in one side of a coyote and out the other. Yeah. At distances where, you know, lead would not penetrate like that. Um Yeah. you know, if you hit bone or whatever, you know, it's going to go in halfway, it might come to the shoulder on the other side and stop, but not not the tungsten shot. And uh it's crazy that people can't fathom for as long as TSS now has been on the market. You you know, you're looking at close to 20 years and still people every day call and talk to me and they're like, "Well, how far can I shoot a turkey or a coyote with it?" And then you're like, "Well, how far do you want to kill one?" you know, right? I mean, if you need to kill coyotes at 150, 200 yards, just use a rifle. But, you know, if if you're calling them in and you know, you want to, you know, hunt with a shotgun, you know, you got options and uh it's the sport's growing and I'm enjoying it. Yeah. Well, you know, say like the turkey stuff. Um I've got where I shoot TSS for turkeys, but I rarely shoot a turkey over 25 steps. Um, you know, there was I know a couple years ago we did an average on our shots we had on turkeys for all the you know turkeys that we filmed. Like the average shot distance was like 22 steps, [laughter] you know. So we're shoot them with anything. Kill them with anything. But one of the things that I started liking about TSS for turkeys, and I shoot a little bit bigger shot size for turkeys than most people do. I like straight number sevens. I don't hear that a lot, but I'll tell you why I like it. Whenever you shoot a turkey, no matter how you aim and how tight your gun shoots and all that stuff, you're always going to have a chance of getting some pellets down there in your breast meat, right? You know, down there. Yes, sir. Well, guess what? Well, well, one thing if you do hit down there with number sevens, it blows plum through the turkey meat. You don't have to worry about chomping down on no shot when you cook the turkey up. Exactly. 100%. So that is my big cuz I people all time why you you know you shooting these things so close. Why are you shooting that high dollar load for that? Well I don't like busting my teeth out. I don't shoot the I don't shoot the nines but you know I know I know nines are extremely popular for turkeys but yeah that's that's the John Collins load is a straight load of number sevens for 100%. You know like number nines will kill turkeys a lot farther than a person should be shooting them. Mhm. And like you said with number sevens, like number eights, I'm I'm a big number eight guy. Yep. And I I especially love duplexing loads. Um like eight, eight and a half by nines. Mhm. But uh you know, you take eight and 1 halfs, eights and sevens, seven and a half. You will not find those pellets in a turkey um at any reasonable distance, even out to 60 yards. They just burn on through. Yep. And lead does not do that. No sir. lead. Like last year in uh South Dakota, Nebraska, the turkeys I killed out there, every one of them had lead in in one side of the breast meat. Yeah. Yep. Yep. So, and I killed mine close, right? Yeah. And that's the thing. Yeah. You can shoot them at 15 steps with with lead and you get some flyers or whatever, you hit a little low and it gets down, they they're just stuck in the meat. That's just just how it's going to work. Um anyway, we get back to the coyote stuff. These guys ain't they don't care nothing about no turkeys [laughter] es especially with this time of year but um one thing you know speaking of the TSS and using it for uh coyotes it seems like it literally turns every shotgun gauge into a viable coyote killer. You know it was used to be all twelves and tens. Now you see a lot of guys packing a 20 gauge for for coyote hunting and that was man that was practically unheard of before TSS got involved with uh uh you know for shotgun. So talk about that a little bit. How many how many users do you see requesting 20 gauge loads and then like and I think I've seen where you've custom loaded some 28 gauge stuff and even 410 stuff for coyotes for for certain guys. Yep. U I don't push the sub gauges so much like in a 410 and 28 gauge for coyote, but if you got I've got certain guys, friends that uh I want to kill with, you know, pick a kid or somebody got 301 Stevens and I'll do the best that I can and I'll try and use a smaller shot than like number fours. Mhm. And a 410 just because the shot is so large compared to the boar. Mhm. Um you know, I've done eights and sevens for them and a small payload. kind of fast that I know is going to burn right through a coyote at 50 yards. Um, number like the 20 gauges, it would shock you. I don't sell as much as I do the 12 gauges right now, but I do have a following on 20 gauges, and if I post any up, they sell pretty quick. Uh, I just shipped out four boxes today to a customer. Mhm. And with with uh with number twos, threes or fours or 2x4s and a 20 gauge, they're just as effective as a 12 gauge. So, do you like loading twos in a bigger size shot in the 20s or like I I've shot I've never shot any for coyotes. I've never shot anything but number fours TSS out of the 20 gauge. So, you know how effective number fours and a 20 gauge are. Mhm. Um, a lot of people because of the misconception of lead versus TSS, they can't grasp and comprehend that a smaller size shot is going to be effective, better than lead at any distance, right? Um, they have to like experience that themselves. But, as you know, how effective they are and how far you can kill coyotes with them, you know, 60 70 yards is pretty pretty easy. Mhm. Um when they start hitting that 80 to 100 yards with with a 20 gauge, um if you got the right choke tube and it patterns really good at 50 and if you shot it at 100, you can kill them at at 80 to 100 yards with a 20 gauge. Yes, sir. Yeah. Well, you know, 20 gauge is a lot lighter and easy to pack around. But I will say I've shot I've shot a few critters with a 20 gauge. I've actually shot uh been a few years ago, but I'd killed two bobcats well over 50 yards, you know. Uh they wasn't over 60. They was in the 50 yard range, like, you know, 54, 55, 56 yards and just dead right there. You know, could have killed them even further. And I know if it would been a coyote stand there, it would it would I've not never killed a coyote that far with 20 gauge, but it it literally turns them into as TSS stuff literally turns a little 20 gauge into a certified predator killer. And you know, you see a lot of guys packing them. You know, that's all they want to pack. But me personally, I will say I am a 12 gauge guy. I want to shoot the 12 gauge. You generally got more pellets you're slinging out there with the same shot size and it just I think it makes makes a difference. Yeah, it does. Um, you know, and overall, if you're hunting with a 20 gauge or a 12 gauge and how effective it is, you can really get your numbers up on killing. Um, I've seen guys with thermals on shotguns now and suppressors. Yeah. And that that just that just makes me happy. I I love seeing stuff like that there. Um, and not just because I'm selling ammo, but just just the love of of killing coyotes. Yeah. Yeah. And it's got it's got life. I'll be the first to admit it, it's got a cool factor. You're just shooting stuff with a shot. I mean, you know, I like considering myself a rifleman. U But, you know, just something cool about shotgun and stuff, especially, you know, you know, especially some bigger size game or I shouldn't call them game, but bigger animals like like coyotes and stuff like that. It's it's it's pretty cool. It's pretty cool. Um, [clears throat] hey, you you did mention the subgage stuff and I was want to ask you about that. What are your personal feelings on the sub sub gauges and what we call sub gauges, what I call a sub gauge, definitely a 410. And you might as well throw a 28 in there as well, cuz you know, you're getting getting pretty small. [snorts] Yep. Um, when it comes to like like for coyote hunting, I've never used a 410 um or the 28. It's it's either been the 20 gauge or the or the 12. But, uh, you know, for water foul, um, for turkey hunting, you can't hardly beat hunting with a 410 or 28 gauge and and a 20. The the 28 gauge is one of my favorite. Uh, just because for one, you got, you know, either a pump or semi-automatic, and you can have follow-up shots if you need it. Like, like sometimes I do miss or I'll shoot a tree or whatever, and to get a follow-up shot, it's better than a single shot. Uh, I do a lot of hunt with with semi-automatics because of that. Um, it's it's very effective and it's a lot of fun because for one, it's, you know, like you said, weight makes a big difference, especially if you're an out of state hunter and you're going to be hunting new property. You're going to be hunting all day. It could be mountains. It could be eastern Kentucky. Um, it could be, you know, like like out west like Colorado. Um, you got people that hunt Montana places like I you can you can walk all day out there and you know if you got a gun that weighs eight pounds versus six pounds. I mean two pound difference is huge. Yeah. Yeah. I ain't taking no 410 Bryce. Well, that's okay. I've few turkeys with a 410. I I load the best 410 loads on the market and the the 410 um what I load I got the three I call the 383 stroker the 78 ounce load. Yeah. And then I also have a 1 oz 410 load. So I came out with the 78 ounce first, the heaviest payload back what 2019 basically. Yeah. Um going into 2020 and uh then then I came out with a 1 oz load. And I I've killed a lot of turkeys with a 410. Um I still feel under gunned with a 410. Yeah. And you know I've seen turkeys die at 50 60 yards with a 410. And it sound like a sound like a little firecracker went off. Exactly. Yep. [laughter] Yeah. I I just can't get into it. But I know they work. I know they're lethal. That's That's for sure. That's for sure. I know. I know they'll do it. [laughter] And that's why I like the 28 gauge more so than a 410. Um people in general, anyone can shoot the 410. Uh if you got a bad shoulder, you can hunt with a 410. And that I've done 410 coyote loads. Um like number sevens, number eights. I I don't think I've done number fours. Might be corrected on this by somebody be like, "Yeah, you did for me that I just don't remember. I'm sorry." But uh you know, when it comes to a 28 gauge, I've never hunted predators with a 28, but for water foul and for turkey, you just about can't beat it. So, what is the like say for a 28 and 410? If somebody came to you and said, "Hey, will you load me up some TSS loads for a 28 or a 410?" What is your suggestion for if they're going to try them for coyotes? What's your suggestion on shot size for those sub gauges? I would probably want to do eights or sevens. Okay. Um, you know, and you're looking at a 50 yard, you know, predator gun right there with the sub gauge like that there. Maybe further if it patterned really well. Um, just because of the payload capacity. Like the 28 gauge, I can do an ounce and a half. Yeah. Um, for the waterfall guys, you know, we we'll do like a 7/8 ounce, 1 ounce. Um, all of those are pretty fast versus like the ounce and a half load, which is just under,00 feet per second. Um, if they got a three-inch gun, I've got a load that's right at,200 feet per second, ounce and a half. Um, we could speed it up by going a little bit lighter on the payload. And I'm sure anything in ounce, ounce and a quarter to ounce and a half is going to be effective enough if they've if a person has taken the time to pattern test their gun with the right choke tube. probably 50 to 70 yards. Yeah. Um on a 28 gauge a 410. That's impressive. I would say 50 yards. Yeah. It's Well, it's uh I mean you're talking you're talking about you're talking about taking traditional lead shots and wonder you with a 12 gauge and and wondering if you're going to be able to kill that coyote that's over 50 yards. You know what I mean? So I mean that's that that's the that's the difference there. Um, I have shot some of the uh smaller shot sizes for coyotes. I've actually killed a few coyotes with number sevens. That's kind of what started my straight number seven TSS for turkeys. I'd had a um had outfit that loaded me or given me a bunch of straight number sevens and they wanted us to try them for for coyotes. And of course, I was skeptical. I was like, man, it's just it's too small, you know, too small. I was like, I I don't know. But I tried it and we did kill something. I, you know, was killing them after 40 and 50 yards. I don't think I ever shot at one over 50 with it with it. Um, but I was trying to remember what the choke tube is. I I think it's a Jebs [snorts] uh uh 665 constriction choke tube with the straight sevens and it patterns out of this world pretty dang on tight and it just carries it on out there pretty good. And uh I still then I started to shoot number fours for for coyotes. So what I did I saved those number sevens and used them for turkeys and I've just shot sevens for turkeys ever since. But I do know how the sevens can wallop a coyote and absolutely drop them. First one I ever shot was out there in Kansas with a straight number sevens and it was out there about I don't know it was you know right there at the 40 yard mark and you'd have thought you hit it with a bolt of lightning. I mean just dead just stone cold immediately dead with number sevens. Yeah. And that's one thing that's really hard for people to grasp because they've used lead um over the years. And uh when you when you talk to them and they ask me questions, I'm like, "Well, two, three, and fours." Like, "You don't you don't do no double buck or T-shot and TSS?" I'm like, "No." Yeah. Um I've played around with a little bit of it. It's so hard on a gun, especially on chokes and that I've kind of steered away from it. And even heavier payloads in the 12 gauge like the 2 ounce or heavier, I've steered away from that, too. Um, I want it to be fast. I want the pattern good. And, you know, that's why I do an ounce and 78 and the 12 gauge because I want the speed there and the uniformity of of that load has worked very well for me and all of my testing and seeing all the kills you like like Chad Burke. Um, oh yeah, he's on he's on the Fox Pro pro staff and he is a very effective killer and me and him talk often and he gives me a lot of feedback on shells and what he likes best. U, he likes the 2x4s best. Yeah. But he everything I've loaded and sent to him for testing, he has absolutely crushed coyotes with them. Yeah. So, you know, it's hard for people to grasp, but like like I have number sixes. Um, last year I sent a few out to a few customers that they wanted something that would work that I didn't have the twos, threes, and fours at that time. I'm like, "Hey, you want to try this?" Like, I know it's going to kill. Um, you know, when when like I killed a uh a hog with a Betta 1301 with an Indian Creek 710 waterfall choke in it. I shot a hog at 50 yards broadside with number three TSS. That was the 12 gauge Allison 78. And this is like a 1039. And so it was dark out and the the guy I was with um Travis Wilson, he had a red light and we snuck up on on these hogs and uh he's like that one there's the biggest one. So we was right at 50 yards. I shot it and he's like shoot it again. Shoot it again. And it took my cuz the flame that came out of this gun was so like a flamethrower. It took me it took me like five seconds to be able to even see anything out in that field. Yeah. And uh I'm like is that it right there? And he goes, "Yeah, don't shoot." He goes, "It dropped it right there." He goes, he thought he seen the legs kick up in the air and he thought it was trying to take off the run. He just automatically thought since you used a shotgun, you have to shoot a couple times. We We walked up to it, flipped it over, and there was just about as many holes that came out the opposite shoulder than it was where they entered numbers. I'm talking number threes. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So, you know, if you shoot a like like number sevens or sixes or eights for predator hunting, just to, you know, kind of use a a shell that would work for turkey or for predator hunting. Um, Bo Witherington, he's on my pro staff for Fox Trot ammo. Mhm. And he lives there in Louisiana and uh he has killed several hogs that he's walked up on or they've come to him. He aims at the head with number eights and a 20 gauge. Yeah. And has dropped them. um which is you know like it's hard to fathom but because it's tungsten tungsten is not soft or malleable like lead uh it's very very hard. It does not deform. So the energy behind that shot it just goes right on through. Um very very effective and so it's even more effective like on small thin skinned animal like a coyote or the bobcats. You talking about the hardness of it and it doesn't deform. Is it true that like almost like you when you do your testing I've heard other people talk about they'll shoot this TSS into a steel trap as a pattern it'll go collect the TSS and load it back. Is that true? Can you do that? 100% true. Yes sir you can. And what what would happen if you shot lead into a steel trap? You can't shoot it again. You have to melt it down and retry it. Yes sir. [laughter] Well I mean does it scar it up any at all? would just look just just the same. What'll No, it'll look just the same. So, what'll happen is when you shoot into a into a trap, um you we use like carpet matting and there's other things you can use to help slow it down. Mhm. And so it's not hitting the trap and bouncing back out. Yeah. That's what TSS would probably do. And that that could you won't just fall down. Yeah. You just Yes. So, um, with my steel trap, we've taken the shot out and cleaned it cuz it'll get dirty and dingy because for one, it's going through the carpet. But there, you cannot tell that it hit metal. There's nothing there's no scratches or flat spot at all on the tungsten shot. So, you can reload many times with it. Um, what will happen is after it has, you know, been shot, I don't know, like four or five times, it can crack in half. Oh, really? But yes, but that's it now. Right there. Well, I mean that right there tells you quite a bit difference between traditional shot TSS if you shoot it in a steel trap and gather it back up three or four times and shoot it shoot it again into the steel trap. So yeah, it's a pretty that's a pretty big big deal there in my opinion. But um we was talking about the shot sizes. This one thing I was wanting to talk to you. Uh, I was going to ask you about uh pros and cons of different shot sizes. Like why number TW's, why number threes, why number fours, why why duplex loads, why any of those over the other, you know, in certain situations. Well, okay, it all goes back to what a customer wants and like number twos. Number twos will do everything you want it to do as long as it patterns great. Um, you can kill coyotes well past 100 yards with number twos in a in a 12 gauge. Uh, probably 20 gauge also as long as the pattern's there. Um, you got to do due diligence even though it's a coyote. Um, we love to kill coyotes. People claim they hate coyotes. I actually love coyotes. Um I'm old enough now that you know I've killed enough over the years on every critter that you know it's a when I see a coyote out in a field um yeah I want to kill it but I respect that coyote and you know God God made all creatures so it's to me I don't want to see an animal suffer. No that's right. They they deserve a good you know 100% every every animal. Exactly. you know, so I want to be as effective as I can and you know, you take number twos, threes or fours or the duplex mode 2x4. Um, people want certain things and they want certain outcome. So, it's I will work with whatever customer comes my way and they're like, "Okay, this is what I think. This is what I want." And, you know, I'll they'll ask me questions. I'll bounce off answers to them and then I'll ask them questions, you know, on their gun, their choke tube, etc., and what to expect. Mhm. Um, so it's like whatever whatever shoots and patterns best with your combination. I I wish that I could do a pattern box that, you know, had twos, threes, fours, 2x4s. That way a customer could shoot it, but it's so expensive and so time consuming. I cannot do that right now. Right. Well, I mean, uh, can you kill can you kill further with twos over fours or threes? Well, I think your your twos and your threes can definitely kill a little further than four, but you're looking at I mean, if the gun patterns better with twos than fours, cuz that that does happen. Um, even though there's more pellets and fours, just sometimes they just shoot better uh with your gun choke combo. So, if you do due diligence on your pattern, you know what your effective range is. Um, say your effective range that you shot and you got, you know, 30 to 40 pellets at 100 yards. With number twos, you could kill at 120, 130 yards. Correct. You better know, you better know how your gun is shooting at 100 yards versus 50 yards. Yeah. That's one thing that I have found with uh with Foxtrot with the shells that I load at,200 feet per second. Yep. um a slower payload of equal payload or even a little bit heavier from 50 to 100 yards. There's more drop with a slower payload feet per second. Yep. Than say the 1,200 feet per second. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Yeah. So like when I do my pattern testing at I shoot at like 40 to 50 yards and then like 90 to 100. Um, when I'm aiming at 90 to 100 yards, like if I'm uh like at a turkey target, and you know, a turkey target has his head straight up, I will aim about eight inches above the turkeyy's head, and it's hitting the whole pattern on the whole target. So, you know, if if you know your how much drop you're going to have, you know, the Kentucky windage, you could say. Oh, yeah. Um, there you go. You know, if you know that right there, then you know, you could effectively kill further than what you probably shot at on on paper. Right. Right. Well, why why why a duplex load? What what's where do you where's the benefits in the duplex loads? Cuz I've shot some of them and killed with them. Actually, what I shot and they came you sent them to me. They were two by fives. Two by fives. [snorts] So, so why would you actually shot good? Yeah. For [clears throat] me. Yeah. But, uh, so duplex loads, when you shoot a straight load, um, they they pattern great. Um, but if you go like like if you shot twos or fours, you can sometimes take the 2x4 because it's a duplex load, which is the the smaller size shot, the number fours, I put in the shot cup first as I'm loading it, and then the number two's on top of it. So, you're kind of getting a draft there, like like drafting with, you know, race cars, NASCAR. So you got your lead car and you got a car behind it that's sucked in real tight and it can actually overtake and go faster because of that. That not necessarily what's happening with with tungsten, but it's kind of like the draft effect where your larger shot is cutting the air and the fours that is falling along is staying tighter. So you can improve your pattern with a 2x4 um versus shooting straight twos or straight fours. But to to understand and know that you would actually have to shoot like twos and fours and then the 2x4s then you would see and understand that you know it's it's going to be that way every time or you got to get a different choke tube if you want the shoot the 2x4s to be more effective. Yeah. Yeah. Well, since you mentioned choke tubes there, let's talk about them real quick. Um, I know this is, you know, you got to, even though this stuff's expensive, you need to shoot them, shoot them through choke tubes and see what you, you know, cuz you might have to do some modifications, get a more open choke or a different design, whatever. Uh, tell us about choke tube suggestions for different size TSS shot for, let's just say 12 and 20s. Well, okay. So, for the 12 gauge, I'm an Indian Creek guy. Mhm. Pretty much everything that I hunt with is with in shot shells is with Indian Creek whether it's water foul or uh turkey hunt or predator. Um they Indian Creek doesn't offer a Predator choke as at the moment 420 gauge, but I'm hoping here soon that that will happen. Uh they do offer a 680 and uh I'm friends with uh with Stuart and Mike at the own the owners of Indian Creek and uh uh I've bounced some stuff off of them to uh do another choke too like in the 690 range and and I believe that's going to happen. Um but the 680 it's uh it's tight enough that you can have a very good pattern close and far. Now not in every gun. Um, some guns they depending on the bore they need to be a little bit more open choke. Um, like like some of the waterfall chokes work extremely well that Indian Creek does like a 700 710. I was see that's what I used to shoot was a was a 710 Indian Creek and then thanks to you you hooked me up with a 680 and uh you know it shoots the fours awful dag on good. [laughter] Yeah, fours fours do shoot extremely well out of a 680. Um even even number threes in a in a lighter payload like I' I've done the ounce thousand a quarter. Yeah. And the 680 um has rocked at 50 and 100 yards. Um very impressive. So you know with people like a lot of people will think a turkey choke will work. Um no turkey choke like a 660, 665, 670 is just way too tight for this size of shot to be effective. Um, so when you when you want a predator hunt with TSS, then I always tell everybody like that 680 to 700 range somewhere in there. So if you got a mic, you know, you got a choke tube, it doesn't say what size it is. It might say full or mod. Um, I would mic it and see what what it is. And my preference is right now is like a 690 to 700. Yep. Uh, the 690 I think is going to be about perfect and a 12 gauge. Doesn't matter what the payload will be. Doesn't matter if it's a small payload or a heavy payload from another company like Apex or uh there's there's other offerings out there. So, yeah, several. So, you know, I I think that overall the 690 is going to be about perfect. Um like the 680 like with number fours. I've even shot 2x4s out of a 680. Um straight twos for me in a 680 has kind of been hit or miss. It could be just a blowing pattern or it shoots perfect. It depends on the gun, right? Well, mine mine definitely shoots fours better than it does twos. Right on. So, like in a 20 gauge, um I've miked several factory chokes and uh shot uh like a 585 to 590. Mhm. Um, Indian Creek made a run for me for uh for pattern testing and uh I've got some 595s and 600 and even a 610 and I'll tell you right now, all three of those have shot everything that I put through it um extremely well. Yeah. Yep. What What about for like your uh like your smaller shot sizes like your sevens, eights, and nines and the smaller duplex loads? I mean, what is this, you know, of course, mainly for turkey stuff, but uh what should choke tube choke tube uh restriction look like for those? Well, I'll tell you right now, the uh the 562 um Indian Creek with seven or eight and would be about perfect that you could, you know, hunt predators or turkey and that would be a very good one to go to. Even even a 570 um for turkey hunting. For me, the 570's never been the one my go-to is. Mhm. Uh it's always been pretty much the 562 across the board in my 20 gauges, you know, for that kind of hunting. But, you know, for what about for like 12s for for 12 gauge for a for a like sevens and eights for predator or for turkey, it it would definitely be the Indian Creek 665. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I remember. Uh, Jebs actually give me that choke tube at 665 for the straight sevens and you know they I can't remember what the deal was, you know, like Rogue ammunition. I think they was actually maybe they was all on together maybe at one time. I don't know what the deal was with it, but they they were the ones giving me those sevens and I was like, what choke tube I need to shoot with this thing? They just hand me a 665 and I was like, man, it seems like it's going to be awful tight for a straight sevens TSS. You know, just me thinking in my head, man, I was wrong. Think that stuff nasty with that. So that's right. Yeah. And that's what I like. I like it to be nasty. It is nasty. It is nasty. It is nasty for sure, man. Couple them turkeys we killed this year. I've ran I think I've got one straight seven left. So I might have to get I might have to request a custom load from Bryce for some straight sevens for next turkey season. But man, he talking about like, man, it like you have to hide the head a little bit for some of the pictures or clean [laughter] them up. I mean, filthy, filthy, filthy. Well, let me ask you this. Out of all your tests, cuz you man, how many shotgun shells you've patterned out of different choke tubes and different guns, gauges, all that stuff. Out of all the testing you've done, is there a gauge, shot size, choke tube, and brand shotgun combination that you have found that throws the absolute best pattern, nasty, filthiest deal to kill at the furthest range for coyotes? Well, I'll tell you right now, my old Ethica 37 12 gauge, I had the barrel cut down and it's got rim choke in it. And with that Indian Creek 680 with the uh e the 1 ounce and the ounce and a quarter and it'll it'll shoot the ounce and 78 really well with number fours. But that gun right there with number threes is probably my nastiest for for predator. Yeah. And the the Breta 1301 with the Indian Creek choke. That would be my second. And uh right now I'm testing a Mossberg 940 Pro JM. Uh-huh. Little bit heavy gun compared to everything else, but um that one right there is very very promising and you know with a short barrel. Both of them or all three of guns actually got short barrels. The uh the Ethica is right at 21 in and uh the 1301 is 18 1.5 inches and the 940 Pro is 18 12. Do you do you speaking of that right there? Do you ever see like a sweet spot that you need to be in for barrel length to be shooting TSS or does it matter for for It doesn't matter. It It doesn't matter with TSS. What What does matter is finding the right choke tube and the right shot size that matches it? Mhm. I gotcha. Okay. Um, one thing I was wanting to ask you about, you know, because we talked about lead a little bit, mainly TSS. Is there any other viable shot material out there that you've tested that's worthwhile trying to dive into? For predator, not yet. Um, for water foul and for turkey, well, maybe more for water foul than turkey, but like right now, copper shot as a non-toxic alternative um for water foul. it for turkey and for predator. There's nothing better than actual tungsten. There are there are different metals out there that is even denser than tungsten, but the price the price point just crazy. It's like it's well, you know, as expensive tungsten is right now, um, other metals are even like three or four times more expensive. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I get it. Um, is there anything any materials that uh that would be cost effective that [snorts] kind of bridges the gap that falls in between uh say TSS and and traditional lead? Well, you have basically like the old heavy shot. Yeah. Um, you know, the 12 density um shot and then you have the old federal heavy weight of 15 density. Um, but the price point because of tungsten being so expensive for the tungsten ore. Uh it's right now that nothing else is kind of viable that could be as effective. So like like that stuff you're talking about, does it have tungsten in it? Is it like a blend? What is that? The heavy the heavy shot is off the top of my head. It's nickel and iron. Okay. Um which is a lot cheaper. But I don't even know if they're manufacturing the 12 density stuff anymore. I think they're Yeah, I might be wrong on that. Um, I haven't checked in a long time, but uh, that's how I got my start hunting with non-toxic was with the, uh, the heavy shot back in the day. You're looking at 30, well, not quite 30 years ago. Was a 2000. I bought the 2001. It was the heavy seven duck loads. I was wanting to duck hunt with a 20 gauge and bought that. And then my son turkey hunted his first turkey at 9 years old. Um, I shot all the lead turkey loads and nothing. It was like 25 yard gun. Yeah. And this light bulb went off. I grabbed one of them shells, the heavy shot, heavy seven duck loads. We shot it and we just murdered Yeah. the uh the target and I was like, "Okay, this we're rolling with this." And you know that that's a that's a case where I seen the difference on paper and how effective it was on turkeys. Yeah. And made me a believer in non-toxic. And uh you know like I've been loading the TSS for 12 years off the top of my head. Um and I've been using non-toxic shot since my son was 9 years old. He's 33 right now. And that you know looking at with 20 gauges and then now 12 gauges and then 410 and 28. Um it's come a long way for myself you know over the years. But uh I I can't see myself shooting anything other than tungsten unless I was able to find something that really really was close. Yeah. Um because of the price point of tungsten or right now, it just makes everything expensive. You know, you can get like less density uh shot made, but it's still expensive. Right. Right. Well, you was talking about like the dead coyote stuff. Um, I shot some of that and I had trouble. I don't even know if they still make it. Is it still out there? Is it still being produced? Well, I do see a few people posting up talking about it here and there. Um, I still I actually still have some. Okay. But I don't Is it Is that the T-shot? It's T-shot. I actually have T-shot and number four buck. The T-shot was in a in a red hole and a number four buck was like in a is like in a brown hole. And I mean the boxes I mean it's old. The boxes have done disintegrated away. I've got them in a ziploc bag. But um I could never could get stuff patterned all that great you know because the shot size is too large. Yeah. I mean I tried all kinds of crazy stuff. Couldn't get I just can't get them to shoot. Yep. I I think that if they would have went with like a number one bird shot size um and then maybe a little bit larger than that because it is 12 density shot. [clears throat] Uh the differences in an 11 density lead and heavy shot is astronomical. That alone is so close in density that people would think, okay, so it's not going to be that much more effective. But I'm going to tell you right now, heavy shot because nickel iron and it's hard. It doesn't it's not malleable and it doesn't fragment, right? Um Yeah, you can shoot that stuff and you hardly see anything like nicks and abrasions on it if you shot it out with a steel plate behind you. Yeah. Or behind the pattern. And uh Yeah. I mean I I've seen guys that reloaded that there that after they shot it through a trap. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's uh I mentioned earlier that there was a time I swore off shotguns. I actually had two two hunts in a row. Two stands in a row. I should say right in a row, but it was two stands in a row that I used a shotgun on. I lost animals. I called in was using that T-shot heavy 13, whatever it was, dead coyote stuff. Packing a rifle and a shotgun. Had an occasion where got set up and let out a how. on all it. That's all it took. Had two of the mangiest coyotes I ever seen come running in and they was just hard charging and I had the rifle up. I said these shotgun coyotes, you know. So I slid the rifle down, brought my shotgun up and about time I got the shotgun up, they decided they was going to they was going to stop. Um, now they didn't stop because they saw him or nothing like it. They just decided to check up and stood there for several several seconds and one of them actually they was both facing directly directly at me. They was in that 50some yard range. Okay. And all a sudden one of them you know I was waiting for him I said surely I'll take a few more steps. I'm going to burn them down. I'm going to unload this gun and kill them both. you know, well, all a sudden, one of them gets nervous and hops around a little bit and turns broadside and is like wanting to wanting to leave and you see another coyote kind of look back at it. And I was like, now or never, you know, and I was confident. I said, you know, I'll kill that co right there. I shoot that thing flips and flops and spins and jumps up and takes off. I never did find a thing. And I was like, you know, that's that hurts. That hurts. It was actually on video. filmed it this many years ago [snorts] and uh so I was like dang you know y lost a co well it wasn't much it was that same season got in on the spot you know they take a shotgun in a lot of times and I was like yep I'm take a rifle and a shotgun in kind of same scenario early in the stand playing a rabbit I see something come through the ticket bobcat big old bobcat too I mean all monster one of the big melon head bobcats and he was coming. Great. Said, "Same thing." I had the call sitting there close. I said, "Shotgun cat." I slipped that rifle down, brought the shotgun up, sucker, like a lot of bobcats will do. They get up there where they can see. He stopped and sat down on his butt. Sat there and called and called and called. And I thought he was in 50some yard range. I said, "Well, I'll kill him, you know, with his shotgun." didn't feel like confident enough that I could put the shotgun down and grab the rifle without spooking him. Well, I shoot same thing. Hit him, flips, flops, jumps up in the air, 10 foot in the air, you know how they do, and takes off running. Found a little bit of blood. Filmed that cat too. Watched it back. You know, few pellets hit him. Lost him. Never never did find him. I stepped it off. Ended up being I remember it being just a touch over 60. It was like 61 62 steps and lo that was so it was two stands in a row with a shotgun. Lost them and I was like man [snorts] every you know I'm not I'm swearing this off. I'm trying to make a living out of coyote hunting. I can't be shooting stuff and it running off. So I like I'm just going to shoot a rifle. I was like you know this rifle can make every shot that a shotgun can but that shotgun can't make every shot this rifle will. And right that's what I live by forever until I started seeing guys using TSS and talking about how far they were shooting them and all these grand stories and of course I was pretty skeptical. I was like [gasps] man I don't know about all that but it it intrigued me enough to try it and I have I've lost one I've lost one coyote to TSS and it was actually my fault. Uh it was a little bit extended range shot and I he the moment didn't hold high enough for my drop and it hit it low and it got away from me. But that's the only one I've missed and I you know I'm I'm a firm believer in the TSS stuff. So yeah, I am a firm believer in non-toxic shot versus lead. Um yeah, I know it's more expensive, but at the end of the day, when I squeeze a trigger, I have the confidence that I'm going to kill whatever I'm shooting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you you can miss, you can make a mistake. Um I've shot a lot of trees, a lot of limbs over the years that that runs a pattern, but uh you know it I've done very good on a scorecard. Yeah. And uh with with like the heavy shot, the T- shot and stuff like I I think I'm a firm believer. I I I I understand what it does that if they would have used a smaller size shot and made their pattern density better, then it would have been way more effective. Yeah. And I think that they could have helped the sport of shotgun. I mean, how long ago did they come out with heavy shot? Uh the dead coyote. Probably longer than that. 15 18 years ago, I'm sure. you know. So, I know I was shooting it I know I was shooting it in like 200 12 maybe. I don't know a long time ago now. I know I was shooting in probably 2010 2012, you know. Y So, yeah. Been a long time. Another company that missed the mark back in the day with a non-toxic shot was the old Winchester extended range. Oh, yeah. That that was non-toxic. So they they could have revolutionized the sub gauge back then when they did that. Uh if they would have offered number sixes and number sevens in the 20 gauge turkey loads. Um they could have really kicked that off hardcore back then and been a lot further in the game than they are today. I've got I've actually It's funny that you say that. Here at my desk I got there's arrow heads up here. There's mushroom bullets and you know just you know just knickknacks I guess from stuff I found in the field or different stuff. Got some old calls up here like old CS call crackatoa. Anyway, I've actually got a shotgun shell over in the corner that's one of them old uh Winchester extended range shells. And I'm not about long, you know, I'm not talking about long beard XR. I'm talking about Winchester extended range. It's got the uh it's not it's instead of like the brass uh hybr it's not brass. It looks like a nickel looking thing in the black hole. Yes, sir. I found one of them and an old turkey vest. Somebody was needing a turkey vest and I said, "You know what? I think I've got a couple old ones in the attic. I'll get I'll get one for you." Well, it had some old calls in it, you know, and I was just cleaning it out for him. Found one of them old extended rain shields. I was like, "That thing ain't going with the vest. I'm going to put that up as a souvenir. It's been sitting there for for a few year for a couple years anyway. Yep. But yeah, good shell that they produced. That was some good stuff. Yeah. Yeah. I killed a few turkeys with them. Yeah. Well, I got one more thing I want to ask you then I'll let you get off here cuz I know you got some work to do. Um, I want you to tell me what the biggest example of one of the biggest mistakes that you see hunters make that are new to shotgun hunting for predators and using TSS. You know, of a mistake that comes to mind. Yeah. Not patterning your gun before they hunt it. Yeah, that is the biggest that that goes without saying for any kind of hunting. Um, buying a gun and buying some shells, even though it might be foxtrot or a competitor, um, any any type and not shooting it before you go hunting, that is the number one mistake for one, especially say you're hunting with lead right now for coyote hunting and you're shooting double op buck. Uh the lead double op buck is not going to shoot the same as a fox trot um coyote fever ounce and 7/8 of you know any twos, threes or fours or 2x4s. Um the biggest mistake is they see other people kill them and they think automatically they can just put that shell under their gun and go kill the coyote. They might hit the coyote and lose it or they just might they might waste money banging in the air at a at a coyote that they could have killed if they would have instead of just banging TSS in the air shot it pattern tested and you know know exactly how it's hitting and how it's performing for them. Yeah. Um that right there and you know you got to do the same thing with rifles. Oh yeah. And uh I think that's probably that's that would be my biggest tip too. I want to take a little bit further. Uh, but you're right. And guys, the stuff's so expensive. It hurts to try to pattern it. Trust me, I know it's it hurts. But, uh, not just pattern. I tell you, I made a mistake. Well, it's just like the story I told you a little bit ago about losing the one coyote cuz I hit too low. Uh, my the pattern, these guns will pattern with this TSS stuff really good out there if you've got the right combo. But one thing about patterning them at extended ranges, even though they've got a good pattern out there, there's a lot of drop there that some people might not take into consideration, and before you can get a grasp on how much drop you're actually having to play with, you have got to shoot that thing out there on paper to see it cuz it'll actually when you're talking about shooting stuff 70 and 80, 90 yards, there's quite a bit of drop air with that TSS stuff. I mean, it's like lobing in there. And yes, that's that's you know, you got to I think you have got to pattern it on out there at that if you're going to however far you think you'll shoot at a coyote with the stuff, you need to know how it's going to hit out there. Exactly. And uh filler to do so, you know, for one, you're just wasting money. Yeah, it costs money to pattern test. Um, and it's really expensive with TSS right now, but you still need to do due diligence and do that because you're going to know for yourself exactly what that gun's going to do, what you're capable of using it for. Yeah. What it's capable of doing and how you need to hold out there at that extended range. You know, it uh it could save you some heartache, [laughter] right? That's for sure. Yep. Well, Bri, I know. Go ahead. No, you go way in there. What was you saying? I was going to say that, you know, I I pattern test a lot with with turkey, water foul, and coyote. And one thing I found over the years is that my loads at that 1,200 ft per second uh from 40 yards to 70 yards, it's about dead on. Yeah. And when you go from that 70 to 100 yards, that's where you're going to see, you know, it could be a foot of drop, it could be eight inches of drop. It just depends on your gun, barrel length, etc. Um, but you know it, uh, if you if you take the time and you do it and you're going to go out there and hunt, if you're going to effectively kill coyotes at 50 to 100 yards, if you know where that drop is, if it's out there at 90 to 100 yards and you know how to hold, um, basically you're with my ammo, you're aiming at the ear tips. Yeah. If he's standing there broadside or standing there looking straight at you. Yeah. Mhm. Yep. That's it's good info. We appreciate you coming on here, Bryce, and talking to us about uh about this TSS stuff. Yes, sir. Anytime. You got anything you'd like to leave us with? Well, off the top of my head, uh just enjoy every hunt that you can. Um be as effective as you can cuz nobody wants to go hunting and, you know, just either lose any animal, but to be effective in your hunt, I always want to kill something, come home. So, you know, take your due diligence. Do what you have to do to be more effective and get to it. Yes, sir. We appreciate you coming on here, Bryce. We appreciate everybody that tunes in. We hope you enjoy this episode and join us again right here on the Fox Pro podcast.